Disordered: Anxiety Help
Disordered: Anxiety Help
Common Anxiety Recovery "Mistakes" (Episode 169)
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This week we go through the most common mistakes people make while trying to recover from anxiety disorders, the ones that feel intuitive in the moment but end up keeping the cycle going.
We cover minimizing your own wins, thinking a place or situation is the actual exposure instead of the feeling underneath it, overestimating anxiety's importance while underestimating your own ability to handle it, and treating a thought that feels true as if it is true. We also talk about why trying to prevent the bad thing from happening during exposure defeats the purpose, why crediting safety behaviors instead of yourself keeps you stuck, and why arguing with anxious thoughts or trying to think your way out of anxiety almost never works.
Plus Did It Anyway wins from Canada, Sweden, and Turkey, including one that involves scuba diving.
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Want to talk about this episode, interact with us, and communicate with others that are sharing your experience? We're hanging out in the Disordered Community Space
https://disordered.fm/community
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The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety is available now:
https://www.disordered.fm/the-disordered-guide-to-health-anxiety/
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Struggling with worry and rumination that you feel you can't stop or control? Check out Worry and Rumination Explained, a two hour pre-recorded workshop produced by Josh and Drew.
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Got questions or did it anyways to share? Send us an email or voicemail on our website.
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Disclaimer: Disordered is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to Disordered does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the hosts or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
Well, maybe that's mistake number one, minimizing. Like, that is a really common mistake. Like, oh, I didn't. That was nothing. That's that's a mistake. Don't do that, man. The other mistake that I see people make is they think the place is the exposure, the feeling is the exposure.
SPEAKER_02Overestimating anxiety's importance and underestimating your ability to deal with it. Conflating feels like with truth. And you hear all the time, I felt like I was spiraling. I felt like I was losing control.
SPEAKER_03Trying to prevent the thing from happening. When I do my exposures and I do my acceptance and my tolerance, my facing, my floating, whatever words, I don't care. I am trying to learn how to do that without the bad thing happening.
SPEAKER_02Mistake number six. Okay. Apportioning credit to things external from you.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 169. Today we're talking about most common, biggest anxiety mistakes people make when dealing with anxiety recovery or desensitization. Uh, good topic. Excited to get into it. I'm Drew Lincolato, one half of Disordered. I am a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, so I see these mistakes all the time. Uh practice in New York, former sufferer of the things we talk about here on disordered, panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, depression for many years, better now. Uh, what else? Talking to microphones, looking to cameras, love talking about this stuff, write books about this stuff. I even wrote a book with this guy, my co-host.
SPEAKER_02Hi, hi everyone. Yeah, we did uh uh co-write a health anxiety book. We'll write more when we have time. Uh I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Author on it, content creator when I do post, which is rarely. Um and um yeah, I enjoy having my practice in the UK and doing these podcasts uh with Drew. Uh today we're gonna uh yeah look at the uh common pitfalls, mistakes when dealing with anxiety disorders. You know, just uh bring to light maybe if you're doing any of these and just uh a compassionate, polite reminder of you know, sometimes things that we think are intuitive and are helping us uh often are not.
SPEAKER_03It's the intuitive part. This makes no common sense, it makes no clinical common sense. Doing the opposite of what you feel like you should do in the moment. So it's easy to make these mistakes. Be nice to yourself, by the way. Do not hear this as like, oh my god, I'm ruining my recovery, I'm never gonna get better. I'm the one everybody makes five reasons why you thought that's exactly what you're doing.
SPEAKER_02No, it's not that at all. Yeah, it's so and it's I bet you guarantee you, Drew and I would have done exactly the same. So it's not one of those. It's just a polite reminder. Uh, but before we get into that, I want a din it anyway. Give me a din it anyway.
SPEAKER_03Um wow, you're very demanding this morning, but it's a good demand, so let's hear this one.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Drew and Josh. I am Kaylee from Canada. You can use my name. Um, I've been listening to this podcast for a while now, and it's been super helpful. But I've never shared a dinner anyway. I always thought, like, maybe if I do something really big, like travel to another country, then I will. But I feel like anything you do when experiencing high levels of anxiety is pretty big. So this is short and sweet, but I had um a client meeting um this past week, and by the time I got to the meeting, uh my anxiety was positive. I was going to shit myself and throw up and pass out. Um positive. But I was like, okay, well, that will be embarrassing and uncomfortable, but I guess that's what's gonna happen because I can't control it. And I went into the meeting anyway, and surprisingly, that did not happen. Um, the meeting went great. I honestly wish it was longer. Um, the meeting is with like good um business friends of mine, and it was nice to chat with them, and yeah, so I did it anyway.
SPEAKER_03Could not love that anymore.
SPEAKER_02There's no such thing as uh a small or too did it anyway, too small or too big, as demonstrated there. Well done. What a great attitude to bring into that, and uh what a great way to kick off our show as well.
SPEAKER_03I agree. That's why I played them one for sure. Like, uh I was I was gonna wait till I travel abroad. No, I just thought I was gonna poop in a meeting and I didn't.
SPEAKER_02So I'll really great, man. There's no did it anyway, too big, too small. Like we had a win this week in my practice. You know, I managed to sit down and watch my T favorite TV show without compulsing. I'm like, great, but that's so that's so big, you know.
SPEAKER_03That's so really good, did it, anyways? You know? Well, maybe that's mistake number one, minimizing. Like that is a really common mistake. Like, oh, I didn't, that was nothing. Don't do that. That was not that was nothing. It's so silly that I even have to talk about it. That's that's a mistake. Don't do that, man.
SPEAKER_02Oh, why are you listening to that person on disorders and uh they flew around and did like backflips on a on a wing walk and then went and you know shook hands with uh the Pope and then you know did white water rafting in a volcano and all that? No, no, it's not all about that. It's about whatever as the did it anyway sender in a said, was um, you know, it's it's it's actually no matter whatever evokes fear and you do stuff anyway, that's the good stuff. So yeah, number one, pitfall. I minimize my things and play down my experiences.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, that's don't do that. Um maybe it leads us to number two, which we can play off uh uh Kaylee's jittered anyway here. I think uh the other mistake that I see people make is they think the place is the exposure or the win. Like, you know, it's like, oh, when I travel aboard abroad, if I'm in you know Germany, then it's a big deal. The feeling is the exposure. Like you got to shift that. It's not the highway, it's not the supermarket, it's not the meeting, it's not, it's how you feel. So that's the other mistake that I'll throw out there.
SPEAKER_02That's a good one, yeah. For a lot of people, it's not the place. Yeah, whether it's agrophobia, fear of panic, or OCD.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, like a lot of people, OCD and intrusive thoughts, they will avoid certain places because it might trigger my OCD. Yeah, that's okay, but it's not the place, it's the trigger that you're afraid of. Yep. Uh, and remember you're dealing with one feeling that you don't like. And don't get me wrong, for all people out there, particularly neurodivergent folk and people who get uh sensitive and quite get overwhelmed, yeah, okay, there will be situations where that will exacerbate stress, you know. So I don't really like big crowds and I don't really like, you know, too much going on, because it's more for my brain to compute. But I'm not going out of fear of it, I'm just mindful of the stress that it may cause. But it's not the thing like, oh, if I jump in the car and I go past that certain signpost, then then that's the that's the threshold of where I can't handle this feeling. No, no, I'm 100% with Drew there. It's not the place, it's the feeling.
SPEAKER_03It's not even the in sleep anxiety, it's not the sleep. In health anxiety, it's not the health. It's not cancer. It's the feeling inside of you. It's the discomfort. That's always the problem in an anxiety disorder. So that's mistake number two. Shift. That's the what I'm trying to avoid is a feeling. Not a not a thing. I'm not trying to avoid illness, I'm trying to avoid being anxious about illness.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. Mistake number three. Uh overestimating anxiety's importance and underestimating your ability to deal with it. Ooh, love it. I would I would say the gap between the two is what creates your anxiety disorder. Yeah, let's use facts. Old school CBT. You have always tolerated and got through every anxiety about that you have ever experienced. You know, often it's framed with, oh, I just got through that, or I just saved myself or I just survived. No, factually you it came and it went, and you conquered. But you don't see it that way. So you overestimate anxiety's importance and underestimate your ability to tolerate it, despite the facts backing you up. Like you did it. Yeah, you know, or no, but then we come away, and then there's all sorts of emotions like shame and taboo, like, oh, I didn't deal with it, I didn't like how I dealt with it. You still dealt with it, you still survived, you still tolerated it. And so, yeah, that is mistake number three. You give more weight to the negative and less on the positive on your role on things.
SPEAKER_03Love it. I I I made it. Those are the language that comes along with that mistake is using phrases like I made it. No, no, you did it. You were always gonna make it. I made it is not news. You were always gonna make it. And almost, I usually attack almost. I alm I almost passed out. Well, how do you know you almost what did you do to prevent it? Oh, I drank my water and I went, I went back to my sofa. Oh, the magic sofa presents passing out, right? So um I I think it's you know, uh that's the second thing. Look at the language that feeds into that whole like, oh, I almost, it almost happened, it was this close. No, that was never true. So yeah, yeah, it felt like yeah, felt like that's another one. Felt like, but it felt like I was going crazy. Did it?
SPEAKER_02You know, that mistake number four. Felt like something feels like, yeah, and I misinterpret that as truth.
SPEAKER_03Yes, especially if it comes with a big hit of something like fear. Fear is very convincing, right? So it feels like I'm going to die. It feels like I'm going crazy, it feels like I'm gonna make a mess of myself, it feels like, and then I take action based on what it feels like instead of what it is, and then things get bad.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so conflating feels like with with truth. And you hear all the time, don't you? I I felt like I was spiraling. Yeah, you know, I felt like I was losing control, you know, but you weren't spiraling and you weren't losing control, right? You know, and I'm not downplaying people's experiences, I've been there, you know, like panics and all that stuff. And I too was, oh, it feels like this. It feels like that. Yeah. But just because something feels like it, don't interpret it as that objectively what was actually happening. Actually, you noticed all this feels like, and you felt scared, and you were just immediately wanted to urgently get rid of that fear. Yeah. But you weren't as bad as you were. I mean, how many how many times I've had panic attacks through in front of people and no one's noticed. Yeah. It feels like I'm going crazy. But to anyone else, it's like didn't even notice.
SPEAKER_03Yep. That's exactly right. So you got a channel. Don't get caught up in it feels like somebody in our studio audience said, I sometimes think because I didn't lose control during an exposure, it means it's coming in the next one. I'm just getting getting closer to it. And I think that's the other that that's I don't even, I'm not counting these mistakes. What are we up to? Number six, mistake number six, I guess. Five a thing. Five or three. Another very common. So we can't even count. Yeah, we don't count because there's so many, and we all make them. We made these mistakes too, right? So this person is saying, like, oh, you know, uh it just means I'm getting closer. It's uh just means I'm getting closer to the breaking point where it really does happen. And I I think uh a common mistake is trying to prevent the thing from happening. When I do my exposures and I do my acceptance and my tolerance of my facing, my floating, whatever words, I don't care. Like I am trying to learn how to do that without the bad thing happening. No, no, no. That's a mistake. We actually want your brain has to be left with no other conclusion other than it felt again like I was gonna lose it. I did nothing to save myself. I didn't lose it. So you have to back it into a corner with these experiences. It can't draw any other conclusion that nothing gets the credit for saving me. Oh, maybe I didn't need to be saved. So you need the thing to happen. You need the feeling to happen.
SPEAKER_02I was thinking that with the audience member. Yeah. If you're going and leaving, oh, it's just getting closer, then the credit for anxiety passing went to a contingency.
SPEAKER_03That's exactly right. You need the thing to happen. So facing, accepting, tolerating, floating exposures is not about learning how to not feel bad. It's about learning that even when you feel the worst, you get through it. It's okay. That was never the emergency that you insisted that it was. That's what we're trying to learn.
SPEAKER_02Which leads on to mistake number six okay, apportioning credit to things external from you. Very good. That's a good one. Apportioning such a good word. Oh, yeah. I'm I'm back, I'm writing a book for Amazon Audible, so I'm back into the verbose lexicon. Um, yeah, apportioning uh credit. So if you're out and about like this audience member, or what if you lose control? It feels like I'm losing control and you're having all the symptoms and all those things, but you know, I thought thankfully, I've got some cold water I can drink or put on my wrist, or my safe persons around the corner, or I've got full bars on my phone, or I can rush to the ambulance or the AE just in case. And then you get through that and the anxiety comes down. The credit doesn't go to you for tolerating it, it goes to the contingencies. Desensitizing and overcoming anxiety is getting the credit and fulfilling and nurturing and fostering the belief that no matter how anxious I get, it was me that tolerated it. Now, don't get me wrong, you can ask for support and cheerleaders, which you know would you and I have fun to say, but cheerleaders for you to get through it, for you to realize that it was you. If you're going looking for quick uh fixes, hacks, some people even rely on stuff like um benzos, which in the UK are not prescribed for panic attacks. They are in the US, but not here, and there's a reason. Um, because you've got to get credit for it. Some examples for me were like I would go around for years and I'd have a magic box of benzos in my bag, which I never took. I get that. But psychologically, just in case. I know just in case. You know how many times everyone listening to this podcast will relate to those three words, just in case. Just in case. Nah, get rid of the just in cases. If there's a natural emergency, you will actually deal with it because your rational brain is way smarter than your anxious brain.
SPEAKER_03I drove around for like two years with with little crumbles of of a benzo in the like the console of my car. They froze, they baked, like there was no way they were even good anymore. I'm sure I chemically destroyed them in the environment, but somehow it got the credit for keeping me okay because I knew it was there. Like if I really needed, I never took it, never. It's like you. I walked around with it, never took it, but it was like, yeah, but just in case it's there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that was a good thing. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, all those, all those escapes, like I'm gonna go to the movie theater, and I used to sit on the end and all that stuff, you know, just in case. So, yeah, getting the credit, that's my number six. Um very good. Well, by the way, someone in the audience. Oh, sorry, correct. No, you first. Someone in the audience says, My go-to is always to leave because my brain thinks that that will stop me from dying or having a medical emergency. Somehow, my house is a magical safe haven where nothing bad can happen. I can relate to that. And yeah, I'd love to see the statistics of what the probability of you dying in your house compared to outside.
SPEAKER_03Hi. You know why? Because you spend most of your time in your house. Like it's so it's for like, oh, you know, most accidents happen close to home. I know that's because we're mostly close to home, everybody. So that's one of those weird, like, oh, close to home is so if you reverse agoraphobia, close to home statistically would be dangerous. No, it's just because that's where we live, the correlation and causation thing. You know, what gets the whole just in case thing and what gets the credit? That is why there's no interventions in exposure. Like to clear that up. A lot of people are like, well, when and there are therapists that ask, well, when do I calm my client down? If we do an exposure, when do I do the calming intervention? Never. Otherwise, they never learn that that you, you know, oh, I only made it because I did special box breathing. I have to do that every time or I'll never make it.
SPEAKER_02So that's why we're until the time where it doesn't quote.
SPEAKER_03Right. And then it things get even worse because oh no, it's not working this time. So that's the reason why we don't we do not add calming interventions in exposure. Just that point.
SPEAKER_02There are exceptions though. So I mean, for most people in this community, it doesn't apply. But you know, if you you know, if you're going through PTSD or you've got complex needs, or know someone who has complex needs, you know, that's when sometimes you switch to stuff like dialectical behavior therapy. And you and and it's uh it is okay to bring people down from that, but the vast majority of people do not have PTSD. It's just usually just a fear of fear itself and the symptoms. That's why we call it the sensitized state. And you wouldn't have to put put in that.
SPEAKER_03No, you're right, 100%. And you know, you wouldn't put that person in an in outside the window of tolerance. So you you know that, I know that. But I think a lot of you know, people who are listening that are trying to do exposures on their own or whatever will all try to, I'm gonna try to do an exposure and I'm trying to regulate myself or calm down while I am doing that exposure. And it just, you know, that's not what we do that. So we don't want that to give the credit. Regular I had to do it.
SPEAKER_02That's gotta be the next rule. What's the next mistake?
SPEAKER_03Uh let's see, what is the next mistake? I I okay, next mistake is trying to control your thoughts. I I but I thought. Oh we talked about this a little last week, a person who's like, that's a big win, like a huge win. I and I get this all the time in my practice. Like, oh, you know, I did the thing, we I did the exposure, or hey, you know, I went to that birthday party we're talking about last week and I stayed the whole time and it was really great. But halfway through I I kept thinking, well, I could leave if I want. And then they'll declare failure because they had thoughts. You cannot choose what not to think ever. You can choose what to think. Right. You cannot choose to not think something. You could choose to think something. If I tell you to think about an ice cream cone, you are now. But I if I tell you not to think about an ice cream cone, good luck with that, because you are now. So you can't choose to not have a thought. You can't do it. So I think that's a huge mistake.
SPEAKER_02But if I said to you, don't think about buying the disordered guide to health anxiety available on Amazon by Disordered Press, it's really difficult not to think like that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it didn't work. It's on my bookshelf. I have it. So I tried to not think about buying it, but I haven't. Oh God, that was the slimiest plug ever. But I mean, I'm here for it. So yeah, that's that that's my mistake, contribution to mistakes. Do not try to not think things. You can't do that. That's thought control doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love that one. Let's break it up. Do you want to hear a did it anyway or a question?
SPEAKER_03Uh let's do a did it anyway.
SPEAKER_02Oh, a question. Okay. There's a few here. Oh, there was one from Sweden from last uh episode that I didn't read out. It's a bit of a logging, but go on, why not? You know, for laughs. Hello, Josh and Drew. My name is Max, and I'm from Sweden. Yes, you may use my name. I struggled to put into words how much both of you have meant in my recovery. I'm sending in a Did It Anyway from my family vacation. I'm neurodivergent on the autism spectrum in ADHD, and I mainly deal with health anxiety and agrophobia. About a month ago I got resensitized and it was bad. Health anxiety fixed itself on burnout, which is more common with ADHD autism, and I only recently found out about that. I went back to school last fall after self-isolation at home for years, so I got really scared all the exposures I've been doing might be burning me out. More or less, got bed reading with all the fun stuff, trying to solve problems by ruminating, trying to dig into why this happened now, looking for trauma, etc. I now understand it was way simpler. I lost the willful and willful tolerance, and how I felt became the most important thing in the room. Sounds a bit redundant, but it really resonated with me. Oh, we're glad about that. Alright, long introduction done. Time for the good stuff. Might did it anyway. Today was a really hot day, 30 degrees Celsius, and we decided to go to the beach, which is something non-anxious me used to love, by the way. I got scared I might die of heat stroke on the way to the beach, because that happens to people, right? Yeah, let's run with that, said Craig the critic. Spiraled into a panic attack in the car, which only added fuel to the fire, because well, what if I get a panic attack that won't stop leading to heavy sweat, which would increase the risk of heat stroke? Amy G. Darla yelled, that's a hilarious callback, thank you. Tell Mum to turn the car around. You need to go back to the cabin right now. So I actually did say just that. My mum responded calmly, No, you will not. You probably won't die. My amygdala still screamed, You will die. I remember what the two of you said, that this is adrenaline surging, it will pass on its own. Nothing for me to fix here. So it settled for a bit. We parked the car and went towards the beach. We looked out over the beach and saw it was completely crowded. Immediately, almost without thinking, I asked my mum, Can you please drive me back? I cannot possibly cope with all these people in this state. My mum once again said, No. I need to cool down in the sea first. Your mum sounds badass. You can wait here in the shade and I'll drive you home after. So there I stood in the shade, re enter Craig the critic, saying, See, you should have just stayed at home. You will never get better. Anxiety still controls you. I got fed up with it and decided, well, let's just go down for a swim and see what happens. Happens. Well, nothing really happened other than me enjoying the cooling sea for a good two hours, and it was great. This may not be a school book did it anyway, still kind of compulsed by asking my mum to ask to take me home and run away from the feeling, but I didn't actually do that, and then I ended up having a great time in the sea with my mother and my sister. It may have been a bit messy, sure, but right now the feeling I have is nothing but joy and immense pride that I did it anyway. Again, thank you, Josh and Drew, for the podcast, and I'm always providing a good laugh along the way. I would also like to thank the other listeners of the pod who have sent in Did It Anyways. You have inspired me more than you know, and gave me the courage to send in my own Did It Anyway. So thanks a bunch.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that's awesome. Max's mom is a badass, you're right. I like how she says You'll probably probably won't die. Oh thanks, Ma.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Well she probably won't. She's like, Well, I can't guarantee you won't die, but you probably won't. Probably. Take me home. She's like, no, no.
SPEAKER_03I want to get in the city. Yeah. That was really great. All all the best things, right? You know the mistake? Where's the mistake in that one? Was probability become uh possibility becomes probability. We can talk about that next, but you know, because people do get heat stroke, so therefore I definitely will.
SPEAKER_02I've got heat stroke before nah, I hated it. Yeah, no good. Grim. I was I was out for the whole day. I was playing golf, and instead of drinking water, I was drinking beer.
SPEAKER_03No bad idea. Just baking in the sun, drinking beer all day. No, don't do that. And I got in and was like, Why am I shaking so much? What is that? Why have I stopped sweating two two hours ago? What's up with that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. When was the last time you drank water? I was like, there's water in beer. Like, you idiot.
SPEAKER_03You idiot. I get it. But uh that was a great date anyway. Very inspiring. Love it. Um, all I love Amy G Dollar. Excellent callback. So Amy G.
SPEAKER_02Dollar, I love that. Really good. Um, superb. And uh they didn't they have a Billy Mays for that as well. Like, yeah, I think you're probably right because where was that?
SPEAKER_03But I'm not done yet. Nope, I'm gonna keep driving, I'm gonna sit on the beach, then I'm gonna go in the water, like really good. So and it's Sweden, so I'm gonna say fjords, really scenic beach, I hope. Are there fjords in Sweden? I thought it was Norway. Fjords in Norway. Just give me what give me a break. Like, indulge me. Uh maybe there's some in Sweden, I don't know. Any listeners, please let us know. Have anybody from Sweden in the uh studio audience correct me, please? But um, well, that will lead to, I guess, that mistake. I'll throw that out there, which is conflate in confusing possibility with probability, which is what anxiety will definitely do. Heat stroke is real, so therefore, my probability of heat stroke is like 85%. When everybody else going to the beach with you knows that their probability is like four percent, and they take reasonable precautions. And your reasonable precaution is go home, like stay in the dark.
SPEAKER_02It feels like the probability is higher. Sure. Therefore, it must be. Also, what I loved about Did it anyway is that Max had already remedied some of the mistakes.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I'm lying in bed, ruminating, and that's just leads on to number 10, thinking your way out of anxiety. Oh, that's a bit that's a big in that, isn't it?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think everybody tries it. I tried it because it seems like you should be able to, right?
SPEAKER_02You know, some part of you intellectualize your way out of doubt. Yeah, well, of course, arguing with a response that does not want it will not rest until it has a hundred percent certainty. And you won't get it.
SPEAKER_03And it can't hear you. Like, so you know, I thought that because we have people in our context have a thing, you know, we call it insight. Like they we understand, everybody in the studio audience understands there's something not right or illogical about that. So therefore, it's like, well, if I know that I'm not really dying, I'm I'm I know that logically, but in the moment I get so caught up and then I take all kinds of crazy evasive action, I should be able to just like tell myself that it's not true. Nope. Amy Gidala will have none of that. No, you can't just turn me off with words. How stupid would that be?
SPEAKER_02No, it's not cancer. There's nothing wrong with my heart. The doctor said so. Right. Yeah, but what if they miss something? That's right. And away and away you go.
SPEAKER_03It's all over.
SPEAKER_02That's right. Blah, blah, blah, blah. You can't it won't win. I do I do always do that. I always we always borrow uncle argument from uh from Dave Carbonell. So true. Not interested in reason, just loves keeping your attention and arguing, like I'm just getting off on it. Yeah, you know, and everyone knows someone like that in their lives, just interested in conflict and winding you up. That's what it's about.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there are times even that even when I practice, it's we after a short while, I'll always say, No, no, no, I uh we're not, we can't, we can't do that today. Yeah, we your anxiety wants to argue with me, and I'm I can't I'm not gonna argue with it, because even I will lose. You know why? Because it will always be able to just make anything up at once after all the data and the reality checking and the that's old school CBT. What's the evidence for and against this thought? We don't really do that anymore so much because it'll just roll in and be like, yeah, but what about that one time when the guy like it'll whisper some crazy one-off thing, and then it's all out the window. Yep, that must be it. That must be it.
SPEAKER_02Someone in the studio just said, according to Chat GPT, there are fjords in Sweden, but the landscape is a bit different. And in Sweden they are also called fjords. So I guess there are fjords in Sweden. But how do I know this for 100% for sure? I love this answer. By the way, it's a GPT.
SPEAKER_03But that's I guess if you want to use AI, ask it about fjords, that's fine. Because if it gets it wrong, who cares?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03There's no there's no stakes there.
SPEAKER_02But yeah, because if you reply to that saying there are no fjords in Sweden and there I have a tumor in my brain, it'll go, you're absolutely right. Absolutely. Thanks for calling me out. Sorry for that oversight. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03You know, just keeping it real. Thanks for calling me out on this. Shut up. Shut up. So anyway. Um, all right, let's have how about another did it anyway? Have another audio one. Yeah. Let's do it. Here we go. This one's from a place I think we haven't had before.
SPEAKER_01Hello from Turkey. My name is Griese. You can definitely use my name. Uh, for months I struggle with anxiety over my blood pressure, blood sugar, etc. for context. Uh, even bubble movements have been triggering weird blood pressure swings that wipes me out. Um, yet in the middle of all this overthinking, I went and did something crazy. Uh I ran scuba diving without eating my safe foods first. Um forget the fact that I was 10 meters deep in a tight wet suite breathing of an oxygen tank. Uh, really very cool was my ultimate blood pressure trigger didn't take me out down there, uh, which is needing to do a number two. Um, thanks to you guys. I'm learning uh so many fears, and as I do, I honestly feel like I'm getting younger and I'm I'm almost at my real age, which is 22, almost there. Uh lots of love to you, Josh Andrew. Um, next step on my totally calm, reasonable exposure triple list is surviving on a deserted island with no fruit or water for a month. Um, don't worry though, I will download all your podcast episodes before I go. Um see you there.
SPEAKER_03Uh it's really good. How come it's not playing? There we go. Wait, here we go. Sorry, it didn't hit a button.
SPEAKER_02That was so good. I love the humor. It's all part of the attitude towards it, laughing at it, uh picking out its hyperbole. Uh, I love that as well. I'm going to did it anyway from Turkey, which is wonderful.
SPEAKER_03I'm not sure we've had anybody from Turkey yet. That's really great.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, no, that's so cool. And uh scuba diving as well. That's everything that your anxiety doesn't want you to do.
SPEAKER_03You're like, yeah, yeah, 10 meters under. And I you know what's cool about scuba diving too is you can't just I gotta get out of here. Like if you're 10 meters deep, you can't just pop, you can't just do that. You know, I'm I'm I haven't gone through all of the classes yet, but like I'm pretty sure that like there's those you gotta make those decompression stops. So, like, truly trapped. Sorry, good job. Very well done, very well done. Um, I love how the next exposure is I'm gonna go and survive on a desert island with no food and water. That sounds perfectly reasonable.
SPEAKER_02Perfectly not endorsed. Absolutely. Yeah, do not do that.
SPEAKER_03That is not an exposure, but that made me laugh. Thank you for sharing, appreciate it so much. Um, okay, mistakes, got another one. What mistake what was the mistake that you made?
SPEAKER_02Oh, that was a long list. Um the mistake I made was thinking there, believing there was uh my brain was broken. Ooh, that's right. And behaving, believing my brain was broken, but behaving like my brain was broken. That was a big one. Oh, excellent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it was a belief it feels like my brain's broken. So and I, you know, believing it, and um I say a mistake, it's not like something that I was like right and wrong, but looking back, one of the biggest ones was no, I I cannot even fathom the possibility that that there might be nothing wrong with me. Yeah. If I'm having these intense feelings, weird thoughts, OCD, feeling like I'm bananas, I can't even entertain the idea that there's I'm not broken in some way. And I think that when I started to realize through you know, learning about anxiety, the works of Sally Winston, Claire Weeks, throwing it back, and all these people, and then learning about it, I a positive, a green flag, some of the signs that you know you're doing well and desensitizing and overcoming anxiety is holding the belief that actually maybe I'm actually fully functioning and I can do stuff alongside I don't like being scared, as opposed to just I'm scared, I'm having symptoms, there's something wrong, my life must be on hold. That was a big one for me.
SPEAKER_03It's a good one. So I think that's a really common one, too. Those of you who follow along with me on a social media will see me say quite often, what if you at least consider the possibility, dot dot dot, to challenge that belief. So, Josh, like if I was speaking to anxious Josh, we'd be like, Can you at least consider the possibility that you're not actually broken? And that's a first step. That's a first start, right?
SPEAKER_02Like, no, no, I don't want to entertain that. Yep. I just want to stay uh there. Uh can I add another mistake? Yeah, of course. Bring it. One of the biggest ones. Uh my biggest one, actually, staring at how I feel all day. Yeah. Because I thought I was something broken. Because I'm a you know, problem solver fix. If I just stare at it and ruminate and stare and check and compare and stare and stare and stare, that's me working on it. That's me doing the work. Nope. Just telling my brain that I'm in imminent danger by staring. Just checking, staring. Although this is what you know, I always talk about this attention stuff. So uh in the disorder community app, I made this uh directed attention practice thing. And just to demonstrate to you the role of your attention in your anxiety disorder. It's not directed attention practice to be like, do this and and you're you're not anxious anymore. But every single member of the community that's done it has gone, oh, I've noticed my anxiety came down. Yes. The attention practice wasn't magic, it's done to show you the power of your attention when maintaining the sensitized state.
SPEAKER_03Yep, that's a great mistake. I mean, it's a it's a crappy mistake, but I love that you brought it up. You there's so much, you know, a lot of the work that's happening now in cognitive science kind of tells us, and there's a growing evidence of this, your experience is largely what you expect it to be. And that is intentional. That is intentionally driven for sure.
SPEAKER_02Not when you support Newcastle United, eh?
SPEAKER_03That's true, because you expect it to be awesome and then it's not. Is that the problem?
SPEAKER_02Over and my mistake is believing it's gonna be great, but this is the yeah. No, well, no, no, that's a thing.
SPEAKER_03That's actually we could talk that's nerdy stuff, but like, yes, I expect this, but I get that. And like a normal person would say, I gotta stop supporting this club because they're killing me. But no, Josh has a thing called precision waiting where your belief is so strongly in grit that you don't change the model of expectation. You just keep beating your head against the wall every match. What's the call precision waiting? It's called precision waiting. Yeah, we can talk about that one day.
SPEAKER_02That's like when I get the latest Newcastle shirt, that's going on the back.
SPEAKER_03Precision waiting. I refuse to want to. I will not change my expectation. So I totally get that. Uh, I dig it, man.
SPEAKER_02Um that's why Manchester United fans are the worst in the world, because they can't accept that they suck. They still think that they're the biggest team in the world in their head. Yeah. And every result that doesn't go their way, they can't believe it. It's like a cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Sorry, Manchester United fans. No, we have to. But there we are.
SPEAKER_03We have it here in US Sports, Dallas Cowboys. Awful. Horrific, like an abomination in American football. But Cowboys fans are still living on like Roger Staubeck and Troy Aikman from the 70s and you know early 90s. Like, no, you're all stuck and have for decades now. Like you're gonna have to mess up, you know. Um, I think one of the things that my probably my biggest mistake that really derailed me for a long time was just assuming that I could run this over. I could forcibly run this over. And somehow it was just about like stamping it out and stomping on it and just powering through it and gritting my teeth and just being tougher than it. That didn't work out at all. That was a no, that's a good one.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and another one, uh, one of the obvious ones, reassurance seeking. Oh my god. Constant. Yeah, constant. Am I okay? How's this? How's the mole on my skin? Do I look different to you? Yeah, am I crazy to you? Uh am I losing my memory? Can you ask me some questions? Um uh going to the doctors a thousand times, um, you know, a little constant reassurance seeking. I said to you, I've said it in previous episodes, and I'll say it again. I thank the heavens as a raging atheist. I thank the heavens that I desensitized before the age of AI chatbots. My God. And I have this rule in my practice: if you work with me regularly, yeah, we contract, we delete Chat GPT, we lead a lot because of reassurance seeking. Yeah, because it just thanks the threat response. And uh, I did it on Reddit when I was younger, or those old school non-kind of optimized forums.
SPEAKER_03Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. And doing everything on there, and which was you know, I had to research the reassurance I wanted, which in a way was luckier. It's better than asking a bot that will reply in a second to everything you want to hear. God, honestly, we're we're in trouble there. I write a lot about AI um chatbots in my latest book, same time next week, if you want to laugh and a giggle. Um, but yeah, that's uh that was a big one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it is a tough one, too. I I think reassurance seeking, or maybe the overriding mistake is soothing, just repetitive soothing, soothing, soothing. I feel afraid, so I must fix that right now. And so I will do whatever it takes. I will ask ChatGPT, Reddit, I'll seek reassurance, I'll take pictures of the moles on my skin, I'll go home, I'll throw myself, whatever it takes. I gotta get rid of this feeling right now. And then that cycle just never ends. So it's you know, the AI stuff. I I I I think I posted this last week. I got pitched by three AI startups in one day, like to try to figure out how to do it. Like they're constantly, right? And you know, and it's a 24-7 AI companion. And my response is always tell me you don't tell me you know nothing about anxiety disorders without telling me you know nothing about it. Like it's a flex that it'll talk to you 24-7. It won't. It won't. That's not a flex.
SPEAKER_02It it's just strange as well, because it's just it's not you're outsourcing your logic and your ability to to something that isn't sentient.
SPEAKER_03You're outsourcing.
SPEAKER_02I find it really dark.
SPEAKER_03Like it's just like uh you know, your capability to be with your own experience. With its whole chest, like it isn't got it nailed until you say, Yeah, but that's actually wrong. And then it does the whole like like we were joking about farming. Oh right. Thanks for calling me out. Duly noted for next time. And then it'll just repeat it again. So sometimes what I do to break the reinsurance loop is we will write prompts. I posted one in the Disorder Community app for health anxiety. Like, feed your LLM this. If you pay for an LLM so it'll remember, give it this instruction. It's a couple of paragraphs, and then they hate me because it follows the instruction and will refuse to answer their health questions. It just will not do it.
SPEAKER_02That's not good in LL.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so sometimes it's like do this, because then instead of just saying don't ask, then ultimately they stop asking. It's a good way at first for because then I make it tell them you you are making yourself worse by asking me this question. And I'm software, I'm not a doctor, I have no idea, I have no research journals in my so stop asking me. This is pointless. Don't do it. I'm not answering you. And then they get the message and then they stop asking.
SPEAKER_02So would you like uh did it anyway? Hell yeah. Let's do it. These are good though. Uh we're going all the way around Europe. Um, here we go. This is from Sarah from the Netherlands. I have a kind of silly did it anyway story. Although therapy has helped tremendously, I've been having a bit of a rough patch due to buying a house, changing jobs, etc. Shocking. Amazing. Stress and anxiety always hit me directly in the stomach, which causes all kinds of symptoms, which can be tough since I have emetophobia. I was nervous about a trip to go is it w wadlopen? Sorry if I've I've mispronounced that Dutch people, um, which is where you cross the sea in the north of the Netherlands to go to the islands before the water rises again. That's cool. Out in nature, far away from everything. No bathrooms, ability to sink into mud. Oh no! On top of it all, I kept seeing the news in America about the stomach bug outbreak. But funny enough, this is what ended up helping out. Instead of worrying about it coming here, my weird thought was actually just dang, I missed Taco Bell. I would risk that lettuce for a chalupa. Then it just really hit me. If I would risk explosive diarrhea for a cheap taco, then what in the world am I even worried about? Anyway, the trip was absolutely incredible. I just brought my symptoms with me for the ride. So I spent time with my girlfriend, friends, nature, and even got to see a whole family of cute seals in the distance. Thank you for all that you do. Your podcast can be a great reminder to keep positive alongside with the tools from therapy. Love it.
SPEAKER_03What gets what's get the credit for that? Did it anyway? Diarrhea lettuce.
SPEAKER_02I just I I absolutely adore the idea that someone with that type of anxiety sees a headline like that, and the first thing they think is, damn, I miss Taco Bell.
SPEAKER_03I would I would totally eat a chilupa explosive diarrhea or not. What is a chalupa? It's some made up thing. Like Taco Bell is like the Mexican version of like Olive Garden for Italian people. Like, we don't even have that. Well, you made up that word. That's not a thing. Take it off the menu. So I I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Olive Garden does that with Italian food. And I'm guessing Taco Bell does it with Mexican food. Like everybody in Mexico is like, what is a chalupa? We've never heard of this before.
SPEAKER_02I think.
SPEAKER_03Barber here, barber.
SPEAKER_02Oh, really well done. I'm so glad as well. That made me chuckle. That one.
SPEAKER_03Uh, too good.
SPEAKER_02Another mistake, Drew.
SPEAKER_03Another mistake. Um, I'm going to say, well, I mean, gets the credit, avoidance is another one. So soothing, constant soothing, reassurance seeking, yes. Um avoidance. Like avoidance makes you feel better, but it's yeah, it's the worst move. I mean, it really is one of those like traditional definitions of the disordered state. It drives avoidance, avoidance, avoidance, I avoid. Again, what are you avoiding? You're avoiding how you feel. So, like, I won't go to the thing, I won't do this thing, I won't go that. I can't eat this, I have to do this. It's just you're avoiding feelings. So avoidance is bad. We don't want that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, avoidance in general, uh, which is good. Uh finding the quick hacks. Yep. Another one. Surely there's a way I can hack this, and then and not help by morons online telling you to they they're getting worse. I logged onto social media, and they're just getting worse. Oh, yeah. You know, like uh here's a stimulation device, put it behind your ear, do this, you know, face nosedive into a pile of frozen peas, um, do this, tap here, tap your face, do it. Just yeah, the grifters are are big, and I we say a mistake, and you know, it's not your fault. You're being targeted by people like that. Sure, you know, but in general, um, yeah, those kind of quick fig hacks. Can you imagine after thousands and thousands of years of human evolution, that the idea, the the ultimate fix to get rid of a feeling, to get rid of anxiety, hides behind a paywall of some dude who lives in Portland who sits in his mum's basement like like selling you the magic hack from this that you can pay pal to him. No, but when you're desperate, it does. Sorry, that was no offense to Portland, never been. I don't know why that came to my head. Sorry, people from Portland. That's all good. Portland's a good place.
SPEAKER_03Uh, but I you know, we'll call them wrong turns, maybe not mistakes, because you're right, you're being targeted there. I would say a mistake. Oh wow, we're forty three minutes in. Uh one mistake though would be, and we talked about it earlier, like the rigid adherence to a belief for you was no, I'm definitely broken, don't tell me otherwise. It can't possibly be true. Sometimes I find, and I know you're free to disagree with me and disagree with us if you want, but the rigid insistence that this is a biology problem. But just because you feel anxiety physically and physiologically does not make it a physiological problem. So it leads you down this wrong turn where you are trying to control your body in ways that it was never designed to be controlled. It must be physically, it's gotta be biology. That's kind of a mistake that keeps people stuck for a long time. I understand why you'd make the choice, but it's okay to want to try things to feel better. But when you stick with it, even though it's not working for you, uh, something to consider.
SPEAKER_02I like that. Have we got time for a question before we finish? There's loads of these things, but we just thought we'd cover them today. Sure. Um, here's a question. This is for you. And the only reason I'm asking now is the next is because it's from Finland. So we're just going around that part of the world. Global tour. Uh can someone in the studio audience confirm if Finland has fjords? Uh hi guys. This is from Helena. Hi guys, I have a question for you. I've been resensitized once again due to my stress joke spilling over and me getting caught to the inwards compulsion cycle. I know what I need to do to desensitize myself once again, and I would have lots of did it anyways if I had the energy to type them here. My question to you, Drew, I've just added that in, is that how do you deal with the exhaustion of this process and the grief of starting over every time this happens? I feel a little hopeless and tired that I may have to do all this work once again. Thank you for your pod. It's been the biggest help to me. Lots of love from Finland.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I love Finland, Finland. Um, I have thoughts on that. I mean, first of all, a lot of negative self-criticism there, like, oh, I gotta do it all again. And I I tend to want to say, like, oh, I got resensitized. I I'm beginning to hate that word just like I hate recovery. Like, you got scared. Like your experience was intense enough to scare you enough to convince you that the old way was the smart or safe way again, which can happen to everybody. In fact, you almost need those experiences along the way. Nobody just goes on a straight line to desensitization and never looks back. And when they do, one day something pokes through that and they have big feelings or anxiety again, and then they have to, oh, they get trapped again. I just got hooked by being scared enough to think that I have to save myself again. That's let's reframe it as that. And you don't have to do all that work again. If you could say, I am now sensitized again, well, what does that mean? It means that I'm avoiding, I'm doing all the mistakes that we talked about in this episode. I'm trying to control things, I'm trying to fix it, I'm trying to prove my thoughts wrong. Okay, then you know what you did the first time, do it again. And muscle memory will kick in. It's a good thing. It's never as long as then the second time, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and you never go out to square one, you're always learning.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You're always learning, and you need that learning experience. You need the flexibility of like, even if I get anxious again one day in two years, uh I'm gonna handle that. It's gonna be okay. It's not gonna pin me down. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I will leave that. Big thank you to everyone who tunes in. Thank you to our studio audience, and thank you to the question sender in us and did it anyway, sender inners. Uh, if you want to join the disorder community and share your did it anyways and stuff, you can do that disordered.fm. If you want to read the health anxiety book, it's dead good. It's called The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety, and you can find that on Amazon and it's by Disordered Press. Um follow us on social media, tune in every Friday. Um, if there's some terms that you didn't understand in this episode, you know, like inwards compulsion, stuff like that, you can go find the episodes on the inwards compulsion is one of my favorite episodes we've ever done. Uh, it's in my top ten. Uh, and stuff like that to get the scratch of the terminology. Um, if not, you know, catch in. We're every Friday.
SPEAKER_03Nothing, you know, and thanks for tuning in. Yeah, it's all searchable on disorder.fm. So if you hear a term, put it in the search thing. Maybe we talked about it before. See you next week.
