Disordered: Anxiety Help
Disordered: Anxiety Help
Improving .... Or Optimizing Your Health and Wellness (Episode 159)
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Improving vs. Optimizing in Anxiety Recovery
In this episode of Disordered, Drew and Josh tackle a topic suggested by the community: the hidden trap of the "optimization culture" and how it intersects with anxiety and OCD.
There is a distinct difference between wanting to improve your health and falling into compulsive, perfectionist territory where every metric must be flawlessly managed. For an anxious mind fixated on certainty, the modern wellness industry’s obsession with biohacking, strict routines, and endless supplements can quickly become a tool for emotional avoidance. If you are optimizing your life just to prevent feeling anxious, you are inadvertently teaching your brain that you cannot handle discomfort.
Drew and Josh break down why checking out of the optimization loop and building psychological flexibility is essential for long-term recovery. They also share a couple of incredible "Did It Anyway" audio wins from the listener community, highlighting real-world victories over agoraphobia and situational panic.
- Improvement vs. Optimization: Improving is about a flexible desire for growth; optimization often stems from a rigid need to control variables and avoid difficult feelings.
- The Routine Trap: When your wellness routine gets the credit for you feeling okay, you miss out on learning that you are capable of tolerating distress on your own.
- The Illusion of Control: Optimization culture survives by capturing your attention through fear, selling the false promise that you can micromonitor your way out of the human condition.
- Managing Actual Health Conditions: When dealing with legitimate medical issues, recovery means learning to distinguish between practical, non-anxious monitoring and urgent, compulsive checking.
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Want to talk about this episode, interact with us, and communicate with others that are sharing your experience? We're hanging out in the Disordered Community Space
https://disordered.fm/community
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The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety is available now:
https://www.disordered.fm/the-disordered-guide-to-health-anxiety/
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Struggling with worry and rumination that you feel you can't stop or control? Check out Worry and Rumination Explained, a two hour pre-recorded workshop produced by Josh and Drew.
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Got questions or did it anyways to share? Send us an email or voicemail on our website.
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Disclaimer: Disordered is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to Disordered does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the hosts or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
Optimizing your health and wellness and fitness and all that stuff. I have gone down that rabbit hole a little bit after recovery, but I think it's a common trap for all human beings to start to fall into.
SPEAKER_04There's nothing wrong with improving. I'd like to improve, I'd like to run a 10K, I'd like to be able to walk up the hill. I'd like to be able to get off my sofa, I'd like to do all these things. That's all right. But then when it becomes a need, not a want, is when you start to go into compulsive perfectionist territory.
SPEAKER_03And for people with an anxiety disorder who are like fixated and absolutely obsessed with some of these things and have attached danger or terrible outcomes to it, ooh, it's a really bad rabbit hole. It can get us stuck in a big way.
SPEAKER_04If you're doing it because you don't want to feel a feeling, just be careful. If I don't go to the gym today and do exactly 90 minutes, I might feel anxious. Well then I would suggest not going to the gym and feeling anxious.
SPEAKER_03Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 159 of the podcast entitled Improving versus Optimizing. Because there's a difference between improving your health and optimizing your health, and especially in anxiety recovery. So we're going to talk about that today. I am Drew Linsolata, one half of Disordered. I am a therapist that specializes in treating anxiety and anxiety disorders, located in New York. I do that used to have these problems: panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, depression, all that stuff. Better now, author, psychoeducator, podcaster, all of that stuff.
SPEAKER_04And I am joined as always from across the pond by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, although currently in Cassis in France. It's beautiful. Very fancy. I specialize in all things anxiety disorders, having previously gone through it myself, and can relate to today's subject, you know, optimizing versus improving one's health. There's actually a topic suggested by someone from the disordered community. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Uh Drew, have you ever fallen into the trap of improving and optimizing? And why are we optimizing? I see this by the way in the wellness sphere. People, even without anxiety disorders, if I optimize myself enough, I won't feel feelings that I don't like.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, I would say that I, when I was in the thick of it, did I was I optimizing? There wasn't as much opportunity to optimize, admittedly. There weren't wearables that had not hit the scene yet, because it's it was a while ago. And it wasn't social media wasn't as pervasive, so you didn't have that optimization culture. I tried though. I did try to optimize my recovery, but here we want to really talk about more like optimizing your health and wellness and and fitness and all that stuff. I have gone down that rabbit hole a little bit after recovery, but I think it's a common trap for all human beings to start to fall into.
SPEAKER_04Well, there's no physical evidence of that. No, not at all.
SPEAKER_03I've failed miserably at optimizing my fitness, as you can all see. No, but it's true. Like uh in a data-driven kind of world where we're somehow hinted that we can optimize things, you can get anybody can get caught up in that. Like you said, even people without anxiety. And for people with an anxiety disorder who are like fixated and absolutely obsessed with some of these things and have attached danger or terrible outcomes to it, ooh, it's a really bad rabbit hole. It can get us stuck in a big way.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I think it's important to speak to about both. Like some people uh could have desensitized themselves, but uh from anxiety. But often, you know, I often refer to people with anxiety as fixators, we'll fixate on the variables, we'll fixate on things, we're perfectionists, we'll do a lot of this stuff. Uh and just be careful because that there's a whole industry around that. Like, okay, there's nothing wrong with improving. I'd like to improve, I'd like to run a 10k, I'd like to be able to walk up the hill, I'd like to be able to get off my sofa, I'd like to do all these things. Um that's all right. But then when it becomes a need, not a want, is when you start to go into compulsive perfectionist territory. And then if you apply that to an anxiety disorder, no, I must get perfect amount of sleep. No, I must keep my heart rate here, my cortisol levels must be this, such, and such. I must regulate and do my parasympathetic nervous system or at certain times of day and yada yada, mon yada yada, I must have magnesium supplements and ashragand, and and I'm, you know, I mustn't have saturated fats and carbohydrates and all this because if you want to be healthy, you want to be healthy, that's cool. But we're adults. If you're doing it because you don't want to feel a feeling, just be careful. Like, oh, if I don't if I don't go to the gym today and do exactly 90 minutes, I might feel anxious. Well, then I would suggest not going to the gym and feeling anxious. Teach the brain that it's okay and then go to the gym afterwards, then you win both. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you're right. Uh a good hint. Uh, are you doing it to improve your wellness or improve your whatever the way you feel? There's nothing wrong with that. But if you didn't do the thing, how ugly does that get for you? I think that's a good question. If you took a few days off from the gym, if you ate a food you're nuts, but what if you had pizza for dinner tonight? Like, go ahead and do that. If that creates a big feeling like I'm doing something horribly wrong, this is gonna ruin everything, this isn't right. Like, well, you might be stuck in optimization mode. Like, oh my god, what is the outcome of this going to be? This is gonna ruin me. Like, no, it's really not.
SPEAKER_04Like, and and the optimization gets the credit, not you. So as soon as you delve deviate from your routine, and then you get anxious, you're just teaching the brain that the routine is getting the credit for you tolerating difficult feelings, not you. So you just gotta be careful there. Whether you're sensitized or desensitized, if you desensitize from anxiety, and then you're just pouring all of your self-esteem into your optimization, which is what millions of people do, that's just as sad. You know, like who you are as a person is what matters. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with discipline. There's good traits. I go to the gym most days, believe it or not. And it's I do like that. But the last few days I've not been to the gym. I've just been eating cheese, French cheese, and drinking wine. Sure. And uh, and that's fine, you know, whatever. It feels a bit different different not being in that routine, but it doesn't matter. All feelings are welcome.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think recently we had a um, there's a little bit of a controversy, or people have been it'll be over by time this comes out tomorrow, probably because the internet has a short attention span. But who's Stephen Bartlett? Is he the dier diarrhea of a CEO, like psycho babble dude?
SPEAKER_04Like diarrhea of a CEO.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god. If you want your head to explode, watch him and Jay Shetty talk for two hours and say nothing. It was it it was the height of psycho babble like the griff.
SPEAKER_04It was awful.
SPEAKER_03But he was, I think, got called out for doing the whole like, oh, I had three glasses of wine and it ruined my life.
SPEAKER_04No, he had one glass of wine. Is that it? One glass of wine and ruined three days of his life. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, dude, that that's a problem. Right. That that is a hundred percent of a problem. And I think part of that is how do you get trapped in that? Well, we're in a, and I don't want to get into social media rant, but I probably will anyway. Who am I kidding? Like, we are in an environment right now that is really, really dangerous for a fixator, for an anxious mind, very suggestible mind, people who are always looking for like, I feel terrible, I need to fix that, or I can't ever feel terrible, I have to optimize everything because optimization tips, tricks, and nonsense are everywhere. It is a dime a dozen, it's everywhere. If you ever want to lose your mind, and aside from watching Jay Shetty and Stephen Bartley say nothing for two hours, just just scroll, look, look, go on Instagram and do one thing about gut health or wellness or carnivore diet, and then the the algorithm will bury you because oh look, we got it in. This is what he loves. You will be by in 20 minutes, you'll want to take a hot bath and like go to bed.
SPEAKER_04Have you seen you seen how crazy it's gone? There's people inserting coffee into their rectum, butthole stunning, drinking their own piss. These are all things going around in the optimizer because it's gone so far. Yeah, you know, like so crazy. And that's why I say it's not just for anxiety disorders. Exactly. Yeah, it's just be careful of optimizing. Improving this is optimizing. This episode is for everyone. Just be right.
SPEAKER_03That's right. You don't have to have an anxiety deserter to get something out of this. And I think one of the things that happens is even if you're talking about, you know, people who are trying to do anxiety desensitization or recovery, whatever, you can get overwhelmed because you start following everybody who ever says the word anxiety, read all the books, all the podcasts, everything. I have to make sure I don't miss any post about anxiety, and you get locked because you're just buried in competing messages.
SPEAKER_04You're optimizing your own recovery and air quotes.
SPEAKER_03And this can happen with health and wellness too. You just get locked in like, oh my God, everything I do is a potential minefield for my health and wellness. But it's it's really not.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, it's really not. It's all good. You know, we're the only podcast that says stop listening to us eventually. Um, but some people who have been listening to us, let's get it did it anyway going.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, sure. I have really good audio one. We had to do a little bit of editing on this one, but for a good reason, and you'll see why.
SPEAKER_00Hey, uh, love your guys' podcast. You can use my name, I'm G. Um, so I have OCD with somatic and health themes, and about six months ago I was so poorly weathered that I couldn't leave my house or really my bed. Uh it was it was really it was really shit to be honest. Um well this weekend I only went and bloody flew out to Spain for my friend's wedding. Um, I'm so happy about it. I was so so happy about it. There were a few like really difficult moments. I mean, I got stung by a wasp for the first time in my life, which is like one of my biggest fears. Uh, I also got a really bad cold towards the trick, which is you know, not fun at the best of times, but also my biggest OCD theme is like worrying about my breathing. So it was a good trigger. Um, but alongside those kind of difficult moments were some really lovely ones, I'm just remembering like sobbing with some kind of net positive emotion at the sight of my friend walking down the aisle and getting to spend so much quality time with some of my closest friends and my lovely partner in a really beautiful setting. Um but now with a bit of time, I'm thinking, even though I'm so proud of myself for getting on that plane, I'm actually more grateful and impressed by the illest version of myself six months ago for taking those first steps towards getting better. I was so uh so brave, and I wish I could go back to that kind of past version of myself and say, thank you so much. Um, like everything you're doing now is is letting me kind of live my life in the future. Um so yeah. I'm a massive fing legend. You probably have to bleep that out. Uh yeah, sorry, I have a cold. Alright, thanks, guys.
SPEAKER_03I had to let that one just run as it was.
SPEAKER_04I love that. Yeah. Well done, G. Can we, can we, permission G, can we just take out that little snippet of where she goes, um whilst I'm happy I go on a plane and stuff, I'd like to look back six months ago and give a thank you to that version of me that was doing started to do tricky stuff. Can we, yeah, can we snip that out from somewhere? I love that. That's one of my favorite things I've heard.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think that was one of the most awesome things. Like, I'm I'm really proud of that six months ago person that I was.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, the one who's probably freaking out, walking down the street. Yep, yep. You know, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think it's so it's so important for anybody listening. Like, G had to like you had to do the first things. Like, we didn't just land on the moon, we had to do all kinds of practice shit to land on the moon in the 1960s. So, like, you have to do the the the really difficult first step.
SPEAKER_04That's a conspiracy.
SPEAKER_03Sorry, that's true. Uh I forgot. I'm sorry, guys, I forgot. I'm sheep. Um, but yeah, I guess in the end, you have to do the little stupid beginning things to get to that.
SPEAKER_04So don't I that's one of the best things I've heard in a dinner anyway. Don't get me wrong, every dinner anyway is good. But you know me, I love compassion stuff. You're about values, I'm about compassion. Yep. Uh and combine them together, you have a wonderful, wonderful sandwich. Um, mine was that compassion, so look back and not forget that version of yourself. So even if you are resensitized to your again, you already thank that version of yourself who's been there. Man, we got this. Yeah, you liked me then. You like me in this state. It's not just a conditional that you like yourself when you're on planes and running around. You liked yourself in that state too. Yeah, that's the key. That's what it's really hard to convey, you know, to on a on a reel or something like that. Yeah. There, encapsulated at the core of it all. So well done, G. And I'm glad you had a lovely time. Uh, if you're happy and you know it, fixate on your breathing. No, don't do it.
SPEAKER_03That's the new version of the song. Be a massive hit with our audience. If you're happy and you know it, count your heartbeats.
SPEAKER_04I think happy and you know it, go compulse.
SPEAKER_03That's exactly hide the knives. Oh god. Oh, we could probably put a whole album out of those and would be a huge seller.
SPEAKER_04Uh if you're happy and you know it, maybe you don't love your partner and secretly made the wrong choice, you should ruminate it on all day.
SPEAKER_03Clap your hands. Yeah, exactly. Wow. Wow, got dark fast in here. Um, yeah. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_04Before we could talk more about it.
SPEAKER_03Can I just two seconds to also like uh acknowledge the fact that G you did use the phrase net positive emotion? I mean, that was such a big win all around from the beginning to the end, and she's a I'm just a massive effing legend. That was worth it.
SPEAKER_04It was on everything on everything. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh wait, what do we have in the studio audience here? Wait, what? Ruminating about making the wrong choice of partners? Yeah, is part of this? Yeah, it's 100% part of this.
SPEAKER_04Yes. Yes, of course it is.
SPEAKER_03We just had a like.
SPEAKER_04Right. Here's one, here's a did it anyway from uh disorder community app. I like this one, it made me smile. Uh today is my son's 21st birthday. We made plans for our whole family to go to a really popular local Mexican restaurant that has all sorts of mixed drinks and fun festive music. The perfect place for a 21st birthday. I've been doing better with my anxiety, but I've been worried about this day for weeks now. I haven't been able to sit still in a restaurant for about six months. Not only did I make it through the dinner, but I was able to focus and engage with my family members and laugh and have a good time, even though all the uncertain feelings and sensations were firing off inside me. I recently heard Josh on a podcast suggest to stay in the exposure situation until the uncomfortable feelings start to subside. They did slowly subside as I looked around the room and moved my attention towards my values in capital letters. I'm really proud of myself. And uh they submitted a photo in the Mexican restaurant. So I love that. So another one of the many good did it anyways on the Did It Anyway uh disordered app feed, which uh would love to read.
SPEAKER_03So well done. Absolutely. We get some applause for that for sure, even though Josh can't hear it. I heard a bit then. Yeah. It's an audio thing, we'll fix it up. Uh yeah, good job. Well done. So um, optimization. What else? And you know what's cool? They ate at a Mexican restaurant, not known for the healthiest of cuisine, especially in a Mexican restaurant where it's just like the worst junk food, like going to an Italian restaurant.
SPEAKER_04No, leave my Mexican food alone. Oh no, I'm I'm a fan.
SPEAKER_03I'm a huge fan, don't get me wrong. But you know, like you go to an Italian restaurant, everything is drowning in cheese. Like, that's not really how Italians eat regularly all that day. But like, yeah, it was okay to go and eat cheesy, refried bean stuff. Like, it's delicious. Enjoy it. Life is supposed to be fun.
SPEAKER_04Who's that guy over in your country? Back to optimization, Paul Saladino. That guy is not a good person.
SPEAKER_03Now I have to Google.
SPEAKER_04Is he one of those He was the carnivore guy and then he realized that only eating meat wasn't good for him, so then he's gone back to eating vegetables again. Oh, uh, and he's and and he's always saying everything's toxic, you know, because there's like traces of bad compounds in vegetables. He'll conflate that. You know, there's there's literally bad compounds in water, you know, like it doesn't and just scare fear-mongering, stuff like that. Yeah, again, but for people with OCD and optimism and anxiety disorders, you might absorb this stuff, like, oh god, there's a food I can't eat, or I can't have that, or that's high in that, and that's gonna affect the state that I'm in. So just be very careful with stuff like that, and also a lot of the stuff that these people say is isn't even backed in science, it's not true. There was this one thing because that's I've taken a break from socials again, which I often do. But people walking around supermarkets just like picking up food packages and going, look at this. This is bad for you. Yeah, and I'm like, What? Why? It's got salt in it. Oh no, you know, like it's bad.
SPEAKER_03I think you have to remember that in optimization culture, the bet remember that the culture is based on attention. Like an optimizing influencer, someone like Paul Saladino or anybody in that business can only survive if they get you hooked, if they hook your attention. And the best way that we know to hook people's attention are to make them angry, outraged, or afraid. So, like, and especially for a person who's afraid of their own body or afraid of health problems, or like it's too easy for people walking through a there's the guy that walks through the supermarket shirtless and he grabs everything and he's doing his Instagram real quick. He's wearing no shirt at like in a supermarket and he's just ranting about, like, oh my god, look, this is gonna kill you. How the hell are people eating this? Yeah, an anxious person will see that, the fear gets triggered, and now he has your attention. That guy, first of all, shirtless in a supermarket, so it's a gimmick. But the optimization culture we're in is designed to keep your attention. It is not designed to optimize you at all. That's why the carnivore guy can be all in and then totally be not all in and pretend he never said any of that. That just doesn't matter anymore. Now it's this, so now buy these things that I sell. As long as the attention is kept, they're winning. You are losing. Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And while we have your attention, buy the disordered guy to health anxiety. It's a really good point.
SPEAKER_03Well, we do there there is an archetype. The optimizer archetype is in there. We have like six different archetypes of health anxiety. One of them is optimization for sure. I think it was useful. Oh, yeah, it is, isn't it? Yeah, the optimizer. I can't remember which one.
SPEAKER_04Which was my uh favorite, Buck. What was he?
SPEAKER_03Buck, just because we used the name Buck.
SPEAKER_04I love that name. If there's anyone called Buck who listens to this podcast, just drop us a message. Yeah, exactly. We just love that work. I love that name.
SPEAKER_03We have a comment in the studio audience that said, like uh people I wish people knew that socials can and often are monetized. On TikTok, they're all monetized. If you get enough views, you're getting money. On Instagram, they do the same thing in a certain way. Like YouTube monetizes shorts. So I I had a woman the other day who was concerned about sunscreen. Like, we've spent 50 years legitimately learning, like, please wear sunscreen.
SPEAKER_04Like, we know that the sun will get you and they even made a bangin' tune them of the right wearing wear sunscreen.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was so great, right? Like, we have spent a long time and decreasing skin cancer rates. Like, we get it. The sun is evil if you just bake in it all day long. We can't have that. And some woman was like, Oh, you're you're poisoning your children if you use sunscreen. Just like mix up a watermelon and put it on you. And that would be my product. Right, and that protects you. And and like uh this poor woman was beside herself because she thought she's in the beach a lot. She lives in a very sunny area, wearing sunscreen, putting sunscreen on the kids. And oh my god, I'm killing my kids. She knew that something wasn't right about it, but yet her anxious mind just couldn't let it go. Yeah, but yeah, but she said it's science. Yeah, but she said it's um the stuff of gods, in it.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and now just and now put that in the anxiety sphere, anxiety disorder sphere. You feel this way because of your gut while you're eating, you're not doing the right method, the right technique, your routine isn't okay. This supplement, you're low on magnesium, you're not doing all this, and it's just designed to keep you in the trap to do all that stuff. Yeah, whereas us two idiots will say, Don't make it the most important thing in the room, live your life, values, and with the feelings, yeah, which is the basis of all these did it anyways, and listen to the compassion and the pride of people when they do it. Yeah, I think you do not want to give credit to stuff, to stuff that is like external. So, don't get me wrong, it's good to give credit when people support you through stuff, but when it's through the fear, you can't have all these different trinkets and and snake oil things floating about to get the credit.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think part of it is the the drive to optimize is based on the illusion of control. So, like all the stuff that you hear us talk about in disorder is based on dropping the attempt to control things, which we we simply cannot control. You cannot control your thoughts, you cannot control your emotions, you cannot decide how to feel. This is the human condition. So we get sold a bill of goods that we somehow, well, no, now we know in 2026 we know how to change your vibration so you feel happy. We know how to choose positivity, we know how to optimize your anxiety, we know how to manage your gut health, we know this. Like it is the pro everybody wants control over things that we do not control, but we grasp anyway. And optimization, I think, is a big part of that. Like, look, I will tell you that now we have learned neuroscience now tells us how to control this thing that has been out of human control since we got out of the trees and became human. So, like, come on, guys. Like, in the end, it's you're you're selling the illusion of control that we will likely never have in certain spheres. Why would nature be stupid enough to allow us to control micromanaged bodily functions? We wouldn't have never made it. Right. There's stuff that has to be out of our control.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I know. Honestly, it's not let's have another data anyway to cheer us up.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, so much better. All right. We'll do an audio. Let's do it.
SPEAKER_01So, Josh and Drew, this is Shannon from the United States. I prior to becoming in such a highly anxious state, I used to love to hike and go on just trail walks and sense becoming so sensitized, I no longer do that for many multiple reasons. So yesterday I decided to take a walk on a trail. And I pulled up and could see the trail from the car. And I just sat there for a few minutes looking at it. And I was like, all the ticks and the poison ivy in there. I cannot do this. I'm not gonna be able to go. Like, what if I get poison ivy or a tick? And then I get sick and whatever from one of them. I can't do this. Then I'm like, no, I'm gonna do this. This is my exposure for today. So I get on the trail and I'm doing well and I see a sign that says that there's some nice pond. And so I wanted to see the pond. And as I'm walking, this the feeling of the ticks and the um poison ivy was lessening, but then my heart started racing. And I'm thinking, what if there's a snake? Like there's gonna be a snake, and every single thing that I saw was like jumping at me. And I'm jumping because I'm thinking that there's snakes or ticks or poison ivy. And I, in my mind, I'm like, no, I want to see the pond. I want to see the pond. I want to see the pond. So I just kept going. I kept doing attention training. I was listening to my feet, hitting the rocks, listening to the birds singing, watching a turkey. I got closer to a turkey than I've ever, wild turkey than I've ever been in my life. Um, and I made it to the pond. And on the way back, I could feel myself kind of calming and like I'm making it back. And I made it to the pond and I'm doing okay. And by the time I got in my car, I just sat there like, okay, we lived through that. We're doing okay. It's all right.
SPEAKER_03All that for a wild turkey. I have a bottle of wild turkey.
SPEAKER_04Oh, so good. Well, I love that. It's like it was like a scene from Jumanju Snakes and turkeys and pop fun. Well done. I love that. I felt like I was on the walk with you there.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I want to see the pond. I want to see the pond. It was so good, right? Like, no, no, no. I'm not letting this take this away from me. So well done. Good job, Jimmy.
SPEAKER_04What about the ticks? What about the animals? What about no? Yeah. Non-anxious me used to love doing this. Yep. So I'm gonna go do it. Well done.
SPEAKER_03Um, I hear there was a question in the in the live chat here in our studio audience. Somebody uh a couple of people asked. It's that that, and we get this question a lot. What about when you have an actual health challenge or an actual medical condition? How do we balance that without without getting obsessed? And my answer, as always, and it's annoying to people who follow along, is Is the obsession helping you? Like, yes, you do have to manage legitimate health issues and sometimes medical conditions. That's true. They they require attention and like managing and paying attention to. But when you tip over into the part where you are just trying to desperately do things that are not available to you, like you cannot control arthritis pain, you cannot control a flare-up of whatever it is you have. The best you could do is medically manage it. Getting obsessed, fixated, and worrying, looping, were ruminating over it is is the illusion that you are doing something about your health. You are not. So you have to always ask yourself am I actually doing something or am I just winding up feeling more anxious about my condition than I was an hour ago?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but it's a simple one as well. Not a simple one, but a simple one in terms of the approach. And it's a good question. I've been a therapist for 10 years and I work with people with chronic pain, uh, chronic conditions, health conditions. You distinguish between what is compulsive checking and non-anxious you checking. So, like, yes, I have a condition, I need to monitor it, but is it compulsive monitoring every seven seconds with fixation? Or is it okay, it's one o'clock. I should monitor my blood sugar, should monitor my um cortisol levels. Uh if I've got if I'm steroid dependent, I must monitor my my pain meds or my mental health medication or whatever. Yes, absolutely. And it's okay to reflect and check in now and then to see how that's doing. But the difference between urgent compulsive fixation and now's the time to check, there's a vast chasm between them. It's not just, but how do I know if it's compulsive or not? You know it's compulsive when it's urgent and you're doing it a thousand times a day. Yeah. So you learn to slow down and then be rigid with your check-in times. I'm not going to check that until one o'clock.
SPEAKER_03No, no, chance. I think it's really important to recognize, too, that in that situation, often importance feels like it justifies obsession. It doesn't. Just because your health is legitimately important, and we agree, it is. It is 100% important. It still doesn't mean that obsession, fixation, ruminating, compulsion is is a good strategy. It doesn't matter. It doesn't I won't play the thing because it's a little insensitive in health issues, but it doesn't matter that the health, that it's an important issue, that's still not a good strategy. You know, I often use the silly like, I don't want to I it's really important to me that a comet does not hit my house. Very important. I would you agree that my house probably shouldn't be shattered by a comet. But if I were to spend all day long worrying, ruminating, making plans for comet shields around my house, y'all would look at me like, what are you doing? You're wasting your life. Yeah, I know. But it's important that that I not get hit by a comet. So it's the illusion that you are doing something.
SPEAKER_04Also, to say like it's it's not easy.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_04I think managing an anxiety disorder with a chronic condition, yeah, I think it is more difficult, but you can get there, you can distinguish between them both. And that's where this metacognitive awareness comes in, ERP, stuff like that. And then your non-anxious all this time, your anxious brain has got all the credit for noticing danger. But we forget that our rational brains will spot danger. You know, people without anxiety disorders will be like, oh, maybe something isn't right here. Yeah, maybe I should go to the doctor. But one of the biggest illusions people with anxiety disorders get pulled into, the biggest trick is that anxiety is the only thing looking out for me. No, no, no. Your rational brain will also see if something's up.
SPEAKER_03That was worth the price of admission right now. Yeah, and that's the difference between improving and optimizing. Improving is I can trust the ability of my brain to recognize what's going on, to draw good conclusions, to reason. No, I can't. I gotta stare at the condition of my health and my wellness all the time to make sure that I'm on top of it. Like, give your brain a little more credit than that. It knows how to make decisions, it can do that. And in a way, we're almost in optimization attempts where you get fixated and obsessive about your wellness and health and how you feel. You're almost forcing your brain, like it's not meant to do that. You cannot live a healthy life if you try to keep your mind laser focused on one issue all the time. It's not built to do that, it needs to wander around to keep you safe and healthy, by the way, to integrate multiple things to actually organically put things together to make strategy and solve problems. If you think you can force it to stay in this one lane to optimize, you're wrong. And it leads to bad outcomes. So I don't know. Should we do that?
SPEAKER_04Which is why we're gonna announce the release of disordered macronutrient bundle. Well, well, what would be in the what would be in the macronutrient? I would put Harry Bow in it.
unknownOh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03The little gummy bear things?
SPEAKER_04That's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'd put a gummy bear in it. What would you put in an MM?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, maybe some MM. I'm not really big sweets guy. I would put like a Slim Jim in there, 100%. You know, there's just stupid like beef sticks. 100% that's gonna be in the disorder macronutrient. Cosmogenics in there for that version. Yeah, absolutely. Let's throw them in there.
SPEAKER_04Uh I'd put a Vogue cigarette.
SPEAKER_03Wait, you know what's gonna be in there? Gabagol. It's gotta be. Gabag. We gotta have it. Gabagol.
SPEAKER_04All right, all right. Yeah, let's go. I'll put I'll put uh some mushy peas within. There we go. Okay, uh all all for yours for a subscription for $9.99 a month. And it'll bacon bits. It will cure all of your anxiety disorders.
SPEAKER_03I love the bacon bits. Are they even real bacon? Is that that they just manufacture somewhere like that?
SPEAKER_04The fact that you don't know and shouldn't know is part of the matter.
SPEAKER_03No, we don't need to know that. Just eat them, it's all good. You're gonna be fine. So okay. I I love it. But yeah, so what's the difference in uh you know people get caught up in it's okay to want to be healthy, Josh said it to begin with. But like I, you know, what's the difference between optimization and just trying to improve my health? I I kind of think that deep down we all do know. You if you're asking the question, am I am I in the optimization trap? You probably are. People who are, you know, that you probably are if you know enough to ask that question. Now, some people don't know they're in it, but if you're asking the question, Am I gonna overboard my health? Well, there's a good chance that you have. And you know, well, it's good, have the awareness, it's a good thing.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and we're not saying don't do it, we're just saying don't don't force it into one lane like you said before. Like, yeah, I've taken some days off on holiday that honestly, my diet is uh of the last four days has been like King Henry the Eighth. If I come back with gout, I will not be surprised.
SPEAKER_03Just limping into the next episode.
SPEAKER_04But but then the next when I do come back, I'm like, right, okay, now I'm gonna look after myself again and you know, have a bit of a eat greens, fiber, exercise, you know, because I want balance, you know, but there is flexibility in it. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03Like, yeah, no, yeah, I mean, there's a there, you're right, flexibility is good. Well, psychological flexibility, we talk about all the time. That's part of anxiety recovery or desensitization. And you need psychological flexibility to be flexible in the way you live your life, also, because you can't live it that way. What's the point? Who is the guy that um the ultimate optimizer? And I cannot think of the guy's name now. He was some entrepreneur who sold his business for a lot of money, and now he basically he he there was a Netflix documentary called Don't Die on this guy. He's he pops eight zillion supplements, he wakes up at four, he's done eating by 11 a.m. He has decreased his biological age. He's like 50-something years old, but he has like the biology of like a 31-year-old now.
SPEAKER_04He's a hit by a bus, isn't he? You could, right? It's really weird.
SPEAKER_03And and so like he treats his life as a science experiment, but ooh, what a surprise! Now he also sells all the things. Who saw that coming? It's not really a science experiment. He's now got this huge I don't know, I can't remember the guy's name, to be honest with you. And now he sells all the supplements and he sells this and he sells the light mask and he sells of course he's selling stuff. But the funny the question is always like, okay, maybe you will find a way to live to 115. It's possible, but at what cost? And I think it's so important to recognize at what cost is the worry I mean, but at what cost?
SPEAKER_04What cost I want, but at what cost?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, like it's what a crazy way to live. And at one point I watched some of the documentary, and it was fascinating, of course. And he's given some interview, and it's like four o'clock in the afternoon, and he's like, I'm so hungry. Like he's just hungry all the time. He stops eating at like 11 a.m. He's nothing but sweet potatoes and green beans or whatever it is, and it's like, okay, this is this is not great.
SPEAKER_04Well, I heard he's he's okay now because he bought the disordered macronutrient bundle.
SPEAKER_03He's not comping on a slim gym and bacon bits right now.
SPEAKER_04So like I this body I was thinking of I was thinking of we should make some t-shirts or something. I quite like that. Yeah, we should make some disordered t-shirts. I love the idea of two people who listen to disordered walking past each other in the street.
SPEAKER_03They're just gonna say bacon bits. And everybody you'll know. If you see someone else with a bacon bits t-shirt, you'll know. You'll know who it is.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, two people, two people with disordered t-shirts walking past each other, and one of them just goes, amygdala. It doesn't matter. And they're out and they're out with their family. It happens.
SPEAKER_03It's like the Jeep Wave. When you drive a Jeep and you see someone else with a Jeep and you have to do the Jeep wave, it's amygdala. That's that's the like the secret handshake.
SPEAKER_04So oh yeah. Oh god. Yeah, oh god. Right. Uh do we have any other did it anyways?
SPEAKER_03Well, I we do. We have another audio. Maybe we'll save it for next week. Let's do one more for you. Oh, you want to save it? We'll save them. You know what? We got time. Let's play another audio because it's a good one. Uh, this guy definitely deserves it. So here we go.
SPEAKER_02I don't really know where to start. I've gosh, I'm 40 and I've had pretty bad anxiety uh since I wouldn't say since I can remember, but maybe 12, 13 was, you know, some of the beginning of it. So it's been a long time. And I've lived here in the UK a long time, and I've sort of had it wherever I've lived, other countries, other cities, uh, not just back in the US a long time ago. I had a pretty big win recently, at least I thought so. I had had a really nasty fight or flight panic attack at a speaking event in Paris a couple years ago. It's really put me off from those kinds of engagements where I have to do that at a table with panelists in front of other people. And I've also been put off by a lot of other things, you know, riding the tube here in London, where I've had issues, like everything's become something to avoid. I've just kind of been exposing my way through stuff more slowly. And uh I did it. I gave a pretty big talk the other day. Felt a little clammy and tense there at the beginning, but I made it through it and uh felt really good about that. And uh I've been doing it with other things too. So I thought I would share that. You know, not a big profound story, but I've racked up a few wins like that. And, you know, listening to you guys and just hearing that other people have almost exactly the same stuff that I deal with, down to the stuff in a barber chair, even. Uh, it's it's it's very uh I had a fade that one out.
SPEAKER_04Oh, so good. You should get you should get out the pom-poms with more. That's a big win. And you've done a few wins recently. I I wouldn't I wouldn't put down your wins, they're fantastic. Well done.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, they'll minimize that. Like, oh, it's not a big deal. It's always been yeah, we see it all the time. People post their did anyways, like in the community, like, oh, it's not that big a deal. No, it's a huge deal, it's a big deal. It's massive.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, you did a big talk in a major city on the underground and doing all that stuff. Like, that's that's Billy Mays. Where is Billy Mays? He's not he's hanging out.
SPEAKER_03I think he's here. But I'm not done yet.
SPEAKER_04I got Billy Mays. So and you're not done yet. So there we go. Yeah, excellent. So st always improve, but well, you don't have to improve, but if you do want to improve, make sure it's improving, not optimizing. And sometimes apply flexibility, not only to your attention and your anxiety disorders, but flexibility to other things in life. Not everything has to be so rigid, otherwise it just bec they just become, you know, mark markers of success that we just they're just not helpful.
SPEAKER_03No. One interesting it's the thing to read, you know, it's weird because you're here we are talking about you know obsessive optimizers, and I'm gonna suggest this. You know, people who live in the blue, you know, you ever hear of the blue zones? You know, the World Health Organization like has these zones in the world where it's like, okay, something's up here because people statistically are living much longer in those zones. And people have studied that sort of stuff. And it's such an interesting when you look at the lifestyle choices they make, it's just simple. It's not optimized. It's not it's not perfect, it's not any of that stuff. It they just live simply. Don't eat too much, like get outside, socialize, belong, like be part of a community. You know, that that's that's a good thing to optimize. You don't have to legitimately like optimize everything they do because these people live to 100 and 105 years old normally, and they're not optimizers at all. They just live very simply, yeah, exactly. So it's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, Drew, thank you guys. Thank you for tuning in as always. Um, plug for the disordered community. Thank you for the studio audience today for being lovely. Um, if you struggle with health anxiety, you can always read the disordered guide to health anxiety by disordered press. You can get it on Amazon. It is available on Kindle and Paperback. Um, follow us on social media, anxietyjosh and v.anxious.truth. And uh, yeah, we'll catch you soon.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, thanks for hanging out, guys. We'll see you next Friday.
