Disordered: Anxiety Help
Disordered: Anxiety Help
Anxiety Disorders and Sneaky Compulsions (Episode 151)
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This episode of Disordered dives into the concept of sneaky compulsions. Many people struggling with anxiety or OCD often find themselves performing behaviors that they do not immediately recognize as compulsions. These can look like productive research, seeking reassurance through a joke, or even "checking" to see if you still feel calm.
Drew and Josh discuss how these behaviors are often avoidance or escape mechanisms in disguise. Whether it is asking a therapist if you are the worst case they have ever seen or using AI to obsess over a body sensation, these actions are designed to provide short term relief while keeping you stuck in the anxiety cycle.
Key topics covered in this episode:
* Why we mask compulsions as personality traits or curiosity.
* The "reassurance seeker's workaround" of projecting issues onto others.
* How gathering more information can actually be a form of avoidance.
* Real life examples from the community about catching sneaky compulsions in the moment.
* The importance of psychological flexibility and learning to be with difficult feelings instead of trying to fix them.
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Want to talk about this episode, interact with us, and communicate with others that are sharing your experience? We're hanging out in the Disordered Community Space
https://disordered.fm/community
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The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety is available now:
https://www.disordered.fm/the-disordered-guide-to-health-anxiety/
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Struggling with worry and rumination that you feel you can't stop or control? Check out Worry and Rumination Explained, a two hour pre-recorded workshop produced by Josh and Drew.
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Got questions or did it anyways to share? Send us an email or voicemail on our website.
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Disclaimer: Disordered is not therapy or a replacement for therapy. Listening to Disordered does not create a therapeutic relationship between you and the hosts or guests of the podcast. Information here is provided for psychoeducational purposes. As always, please consult your mental health and/or medical care providers. If you are having a mental health crisis, always reach out immediately for in-person help.
Sneaky compulsions and anxiety disorders. We don't realize that their avoidances, escape behaviors, compulsions. They look like something correct. Or sometimes we know it's a compulsion, we know it's a safety behavior, we know it's reassurance seeking, and we mask it and we think, no one's gonna know what I'm doing here.
SPEAKER_04Loved ones would get sick of me asking for reassurance and stuff. I do like a work around that. I like work around it a little bit. I project it onto like a character on TV or an anecdote from work. Sheila from work has this, and you know, what do you think of that? And then they're like, we know your game. I'm not putting my hand on my chest or anything like that. I'm not gonna monitor my pulse. I remember I was out and I was leaning against a wall just to press my back against the wall to feel my heart rate. I was like, I'm doing it even on content. This is such a sneaky compulsion. Like, stop monitoring your heart rate, man.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 151. Today we're talking about sneaky compulsions and anxiety disorders because they're not only compulsions, they are sneaky. I am Drew Linsolato, one half of Disordered. I am a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, practicing in New York. I'm a former sufferer of the things we talk about on Disordered. I'm an author, I'm a psychoeducator, an advocate, social media guy, and I am joined from across the pond by my esteemed co-host, as always.
SPEAKER_04Hi everyone, I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. The psychotherapist specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. Previous sufferer myself, went through the mail with it all, write books on it, love doing this podcast. And yeah, I'm looking forward to talking about today's subject, which is Yeah, sneaky compulsions.
SPEAKER_02The sneaky version of like compulsions, escape behaviors, avoidance behaviors. We'll lump it all in, right? Sneaky because that we don't realize that there are avoidances, escape behaviors, you know, compulsions. They look like something correct. Or sometimes we think we're masking it. We know it's a compulsion, we know it's a safety behavior, we know it's reassurance seeking, but we think we're really cool. I used to do this all the time, and we mask it, and we think no one's gonna know what I'm doing here, but we know, we know. So it's okay though. Everybody does that.
SPEAKER_04What's the sneakiest one you hear as a therapist? So when I work with OCD, and I do this not to to shame or anything like that, just to let you know that you've seen that your brain and OCD is very common.
SPEAKER_05Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Uh, but the most common OCD reassurance, sneaky compulsion I hear is usually towards the end of sessions, many people do it's like yeah, but I'm I'm too far gone, aren't I? I'm the one that's that's too far gone. You know, and um no, you know, you've got socially anxiety we can crack on. Yeah, like yeah, but now you've heard all that, I'm the one that's too far gone. And like, no, you're not special. Yeah, but how do you know? And I'm like, don't be sneaky compulsing me with your reassurance stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you know, it's you caught I I guess if that's a sneak, which it is, it is a bit of a sneaky reassurance seeking. I it's probably the most common one, you're right. I every every single client I've ever worked with, and maybe it's different because usually they come to us because they know us from sort of social media and stuff, and at some point they will ask again and again, by the way, do you have anybody who's as bad as me? You don't have anybody as bad as me, do you? Like everybody will ask that question.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I always rise to it and be like, Oh, you're way way too far. I don't even know why we're here.
SPEAKER_02Usually I'll say, like, you're gonna be my fifth book. Are you kidding? This is like and they laugh. You have every anxiety disorder, and like yeah, you know what I find interesting is often that that sneaky compulsion is made even sneakier when they frame it as a joke. Like, oh, I I'm driving you crazy, right? You're you're gonna fire me. You're gonna let me, I mean, I'm the worst. Like, and they start making jokes about it, and like, and I'll just say it, I'm not gonna laugh at the joke because I know what you're doing. Like, you're you're asking for some reassurance that you're gonna be okay, which is fine, and I'm there to kind of cheer for you, but I see what you're doing. You think you're you think you're hiding it as a joke.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, exactly. And we do this because we're scared. I used to all the time, particularly like with loved ones and stuff, like where like loved ones would get sick of asking for re you know, of me asking for reassurance and stuff. So then I'd I do like a workaround, I'd I'd like work around it a little bit, you know, like I project it onto like a character on TV or an anecdote from work and be like, well, you know, yeah, you know, uh Sheila from work has this, and you know, what do you think of that? And then and then they're like, we know your game, stop it. Stop it.
SPEAKER_02You're not fooling anyone, you know. I get that too as jokes, or we see it a lot, like in, you know, especially in the comment section online or like in community groups and things of that nature. The joke, sneaky compulsion or sneaky reassurance seeking is a good one. Like, ah, this is so funny. My brain's so stupid. Like, clearly, I just have a rash on my hand. It's just a rash, but my stupid brain has to say that I'm dying. Ha ha ha. A lot of smiley emojis and laughs and LMFAOs. And okay, but I used to do that too. And it would be, isn't this so stupid? And all I wanted to hear was somebody say, Yeah, it's really stupid. You're not having a heart attack. It's just indigestion. But I didn't I didn't want to ask that because I knew I wasn't supposed to ask it. And I thought it was so slick making a joke. I was not slick at all.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, no, no, I hear you. Those sneaky little compulsions, but they apply to everything as well. Like, um when I had health anxiety, I used to like chronically monitor my heart rate and stuff. And then so I swore to myself, right, I'm not putting my hand on my chest or anything like that. I'm not gonna monitor my pulse, whatever. And I remember once, it's almost unconscious. I remember I was out and I was leaning against a wall just to press my back against the wall to feel to feel my heart rate. I was like, I'm I'm doing it even unconsciously. This is such a sneaky compulsion. Like, stop monitoring your heart rate, man.
SPEAKER_02Leave it alone. Yeah, I've done that. I've done the uh one of my things that I used to do all the time because I was very cardiocentric. Any sensation in my thorax, my chest, whatever, be the thorax, like I'm a bug. Seriously. Like, you know, any sensation in my chest would freak me out. What the hell is a thorax? Thorax. You know, I like thoracic surgery. This is my thorax, it's horso, you know. So, but I just don't think I don't think we use that. I didn't know that was a that sounds like a Pokemon. Yeah, right, exactly. But any sensation in that area would sort of freak me out, and I would have to poke, I would spend all day was poking and prodding and massaging and like, well, if my chest hurts and I press on it and it doesn't hurt, then that means it's not a heart attack. It must be muscular. And I and I knew I had to stop doing that. And I would do that also what you did, like very sneakily, just sort of like leaning back into the chair. Well, what if I really push my back hard into this? Does the pain go away? And oh my goodness, it was it was just it was a mess. It really was. It's okay though. We're not picking at anybody, we're not laughing at anybody. It's we're just trying to point out we did it too, and we see it every day. It's normal to do these things, and sometimes anxiety will trick us into thinking, or OCD will trick us into saying, oh no, this isn't compulsion. This is this is okay. This is just my personality, or this is just this is just a good idea.
SPEAKER_04Nah. What about what about what about the ones with um a lot of people in this community, particularly very intelligent problem solvers, when they particularly those that like kind of not quite ready to do the leap into exposures and you know, to do those things, they'll they'll do compulsive like resource gathering. But a sneaky compulsion is twisting like the anchoring logic of well, I'm reading about the condition, so that's doing something. Yeah, so it's sneaky because yeah, all right, you're reading about anxiety disorders, exposure, stuff like that, but it's sneaky because what was once planned as a like a difficult exposure or something like that turns into avoidance and well, well, at least I'm reading about it, at least I'm doing something about it. That's a sneaky compulsion.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the re reading as a form of look, I'm doing something. I the other place that I think that you know information gathering comes into play is it gets masked as a personality trait sometimes. No, I'm just I'm just I'm just a curious person. I just like to know more. I'm the kind of person that does better when they know more, which may be true, but yeah, that was me. Yeah, I'm I'm just the kind of person I just do better when I know more. And like I but yeah, but we always have to return to that act workability thing. And act we say, is it is it workable for you? Well, yeah, I used to be really curious and I'd love to research stuff and learn about stuff, but it has morphed away from curiosity and now it's in the safety realm. Now it's a compulsion disguised as curiosity or a personality trait.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and when we say the sneaky part of it, we're not saying you're being sneaky, right? Right, right. We're saying anxiety will twist the narrative so the compulsions become sneaky. Yeah, because some of them I wouldn't didn't notice I was doing, or somehow we can kind of justify with avoidance. So when we say sneaky, we're not saying oh, you're being sneaky, yeah, it's something better you should be doing. We're saying it can just present as sneaky. Yeah, and sometimes you can notice that. Oh, yeah, actually, that was my avoidance voice overriding another voice there and stuff. So, this is why we're doing this episode. Yeah, because that's just better. Yeah, they do they do come up a lot, particularly with the OCD community.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, 100%. I want to go to a Did It Anyway from our little community app that we're just having such a good time at. We're not gonna mention the person's name, but this is one of those things where, like, oh, I just do better if I know more. Like, research is good, but then it's not. And this person shared uh, I guess yesterday. Uh, she says, I am so proud of myself. Today I was aware enough to see that I really wanted to use Chat GPT to compulse over a body sensation. The funny part is I already knew the answer. Mentally, I already know, but I had such a big anxiety spike that I wanted the reassurance. But I caught it. I said, No, this is where it actually counts. And I returned to what I was doing. Within maybe 10 minutes, that anxiety spike dropped. And I even noticed that my thinking became more clear. I think I've definitely had this experience before where I resisted a compulsion, but today was the first day I was able to truly see the anxiety for what it is and how it operates. Oh man. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04That's that's that's a yes from me that I love that. Yeah, I've seen it for what it is as a mechanism. I always call it a mechanism. Yep, it's just a mechanism. I can when you see the mechanism, just be like, no, it's whole purpose to get you to act, to go inwards, to stop what non-anxious year is doing, to give all your attention, to drop your shopping. I love that. You're like, no, I'm gonna stop and observe. Not doing it. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Love that. Well done.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, hey, that that's one of those that you know, I'm just the kind of person that does better if I know more. No, it's the right thing to know more. Or sometimes that gets disguised as, well, I have a right to know about my health, right? Yeah, you definitely do. Except, you know, I have a right to know about my health. Everybody in the room, everybody listening to us does. But if you feel like it's a huge risk right now to you, and you're really, really anxious and upset, if you don't get more information about your health right now, that's kind of a clue. That's that sneaky. Oh, I'll wrap this as a personality trait or a right or something that's correct, but it's just a sneaky compulsion.
SPEAKER_04So, yeah, I like that. Have we got any audio ones from the community? We do, I got two good ones. Disordered.fm. Send in your own audios from disordered.fm if you want to uh come in and send us a message, tell us about your life, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_02100%. Let's hear this one because it's a really good one.
SPEAKER_01Hey Josh and Drew, this is Craig from Ireland. Hope you're both good. You can use my name. Yeah, just want to give you in I did it anyway. The last kind of 14 months I entered into a resensitized state uh due to uh being in hospital. Uh so my anxiety, health anxiety, etc., has been very, very up and down. The last two weeks in particular, I've been not in the not in a great spot. And last night I woke up having a panic attack. Uh, and it wasn't the normal that I would have with them. There was no impending doom kind of feel, there was no sweating or anything like that. It was just my heart was flying. And then I got dry mouth as well. I kind of was because it didn't feel the usual, I was kind of panicking even more in the moment. But I just kind of told myself, you know, I know what this is. I know what this is. And uh yeah, it passed after about 15 minutes, didn't have a great night's sleep, let's be honest. Um, it wasn't great after that. But this morning I've gotten up. I haven't, you know, stayed under the covers in bed, I've had my shower, I'm gonna go out for the day with with my family and stuff. But yeah, I'm just trying to be more compassionate to myself and just you know understand that it's not a straight road, that there will be bumps, um, hard corners that I might not always see coming, but that I I I will get to the end destination, which is to to be in a much, much better frame of mind, shall we say? So but yeah, look, thanks so much to both of you for all you do. Uh the books and the podcast are amazing. Um I hope you both have a great day. Wow.
SPEAKER_04I love that. What did you like about that, Drew?
SPEAKER_02I think the moment where Craig was able to recognize the process, like, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I have some different sensations, but I know what this is because I've I've experienced this before. So I'm gonna roll the penta million gone here, roll the dice, take a chance, and just let it ride. And sure enough, boom, there it was. I the secondary win is I didn't sleep well after that, which I kind of get. It's hard to go back to sleep after that. But he didn't turn that into a disaster either. Double win.
SPEAKER_04No, I love that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I love that. Yeah, especially because and there's a lot of people that particularly and well done, Craig, that's excellent. Um, there's a lot of people, particularly in the community, where that would then make sleep a thing. All right, I've done the panic, but now I can't sleep. Yeah, you know, and we've done an episode on sleep anxiety, but there's a lot of sneaky compulsions around that too, you know, uh particularly with avoidance. You know, like, oh, non-anxious me would go out for dinner tonight with my friend. But if I'm still out past nine o'clock, then you know that's gonna stop my sleep, which is the most important thing. I'm a sleep. Nah, you go out, do what non-anxious you would do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm with you. Another place that, and you know, we're I'm using the word compulsions or we are, but really there's a blanket term, like you know, sneaky avoidance. After a panic attack, or that the the I call it the panic attack hangover, the sneaky compulsion or escape or avoidance behavior there often is no, but I it's correct to take it easy now. Like, no, no, no, no, I'm supposed to take care of myself, I'm supposed to rest, I'm supposed to like make sure that I and that turns into four days on the sofa not leaving the house, and then saying, Oh, I don't know what happened, I'm in a relapse, so I'm back to square one. So the sneaky compulsion or the sneaky avoidance after the panic attack would be, oh, now I have to treat myself very gently so that I can recover and recharge from that. But that's yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04As if you've just been in a 12-round boxing match.
SPEAKER_02100%. Right. If I just went the distance with Mike Tyson, maybe, but a panic attack isn't that. So you wouldn't go the distance with Mike Tyson. I would say that I would, but I wouldn't. Guy's face tattoos. I ain't going in there with him. No, I ain't doing it.
SPEAKER_04No, absolutely not. Um, I know a sneaky compulsion.
SPEAKER_02What's that?
SPEAKER_04Here's a here's a really good sneaky compulsion.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_04Everyone assumes you do compulsions when you're anxious. Hell no. You do compulsions when you're not anxious. Oh my god, I'm not anxious. Yeah, I feel good a minute later. Am I still feeling good? I'm still feeling good. Oh my god, I'm still not anxious. I'm doing it. It's gone. Is it there? It's gone again. Yes, the anxiety is not there. Yeah, yes, it's not there. Those are stop comp enjoy your time, not feeling anxious. You don't need to waste it by checking to see if it's back. Because guess what? It will come back, comes back for everyone. You know, you don't need to keep checking, it's there. All right, you know, it's like it's it will come back not in a way that oh and consume you, but all emotions are allowed. Everyone gets anxiety. You know, if I took anyone off the street who isn't in a disordered state, and I asked them, right, check every 30 seconds to see if you're anxious. Guess what? A broken clock is right twice a day, they'll be like, Oh, oh yeah, no, no, I'm anxious. Yeah, yeah. And that's the difference though. Yeah, well, okay, that's interesting. I'm anxious, I was angry, I'm annoyed. Sneaking compulsion is checking even when you're calm.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think the sneaky part of that is that it wraps itself in, I don't know why. Sometimes the compulsion or the avoidance will wrap itself into importance. It will, it will like kind of mask itself as importance. But but getting better and recovering and decent is really important. So it makes sense for me to be checking to see if it's going away and if I'm getting better. Like, no, it's not a good thing. It still doesn't make sense.
SPEAKER_04I'm measuring if I'm if it's working.
SPEAKER_02It it doesn't, it still doesn't make sense. Like, yeah, but I want to get better so bad. Okay, cool. I I we want you to get better too, but it doesn't mean that monitoring your state every 30 seconds intentionally is a good way to go about that. So importance doesn't excuse the compulsion in a way, but it will justify it in your mind, right? Or or I've had people argue with me on that too. I mean, I know they're not arguing, it's fine, but I know you have it too, therapy clients that will argue in favor of the compulsion. That's actually a good idea. No, it's not. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one too. Um, another one that I probably throw out there would be I had a list of these too. Oh, here's one of my favorite ones too. Like sneaky compulsion is trying to figure out how much you are allowed to compulse. And I know you get this one too. I'm just trying to figure out like how much is compulsive and how much is useful. And then once I can tell definitely, then I'll be I'll be good. Then I'll stop compulsing. No, you won't. It's all compulsing. So there's zero. There's how much is compulsing? All of it. How much is it useful? Zero, at least for now, right? So that's another one I think is a little bit sneaky. People they don't want to give up to compulsion. So they want to find where it's no, no, I just want to do but this much of it. I want to do 20% of the compulsion because that's okay. No, no, zero percent of the compulsion is okay. Well, I do hear that word. I do hear that word. I mean, at least for now, it's a compulsion, so we need zero of it. And then maybe it will be introduced again one day as a useful part of your life, but for now, zero percent compulsion is what you need.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. If it feels right to leave it alone. No, I'll leave it alone when it feels right.
SPEAKER_02Oh sneaky, right?
SPEAKER_04No, no, leave it alone when it feels very wrong.
SPEAKER_02That's it. Thank you. That's another good one, too. Right. Yeah, I'll know because it'll feel right. No, it won't feel right at all. Like, in fact, you compulse as much as you do and avoid as much to try to make it feel right. So that's another way it can see.
SPEAKER_04Is it working yet? Is the is the willful tolerance working yet?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Well, you that's you're just checking. Yeah, yeah. And then that's where you've lost the willful. You know, it's okay. There are all these little sneaker. And by the way, we sit here all smug saying this. These are all things that Drew and I have done for years. Yeah, it's not even a question.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I'm I feel called out by my own podcast episode, honestly, when we're doing this, because you know, I did all of those things. How much is enough? You know, I for me checking my heart rate. I thought it was just because I was also trying to get in better shape. Of course, everybody's always trying to get in better shape, and I justified it as like, oh no, but it's it's actually right to be monitoring my heartbeat, right? Like, no, zero risk. Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, like contamination fears, foods, stuff like that. Yeah, you when sneaking compulsions when you justify it because it's healthy. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It will wrap itself.
SPEAKER_04Oh no, no, no, it's healthy to eat fermented kale. Yeah. Yeah, but that, but it was only one of your 10 allowed foods to have. So yeah, you can get the narrative to have it. Although don't eat fermented kale, I'd I'd yeah, that might kill you. I don't I don't know.
SPEAKER_02I don't I mean, maybe it is right to eat, but it's still wrong as far as we're concerned. Kale is always wrong. I hate kale. I'm in an anti-kale cake and I have been for years. Uh, should we do uh another did it anyway? You want to do a written one? You got another one?
SPEAKER_04I've got a written one from from Cheryl. Do you want to hear one from Cheryl? Absolutely, I do. Hello, Cheryl. Hello, my name is Cheryl, and you can use my name. I just wanted to share a did it anyway. I did try to send this as a voice now, but the but the preview issues showed zero zero, so I'm not sure if anything sent. I needed to go into a doctor's surgery today to collect a prescription, and I'd already been avoiding doing this for over two weeks. I had planned to do it today, but then decided to delay it until next week due to my anxieties around going into the doctor's and my intrusive thoughts around contamination. I went for a walk instead and collected a parcel, which ended up making me anxious anyway due to the same contamination fears. I was listening to your podcast around self-compassion at the time and being your own cheerleader. So, as I was walking past the doctors, I decided to do it anyway and go inside. Contamination fears were there, but I chose to focus on the task at hand. Unfortunately, the prescription was not ready due to a technical error, so I'll need to go back next week. However, I came out feeling very proud of myself for having gone inside, and when I came home, I only washed my hands once compared to my usual three or four times. Thank you for everything you both do. I love the podcast on your recent health anxiety book. The health anxiety book is very good. Well done, Cheryl.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I love it. That gets applause for sure.
SPEAKER_04I love that. It was that was a Where is where's um not done yet, dude?
SPEAKER_02Oh, Billy Mays. You know, I we don't Billy Mays doesn't get enough love here because I always forget where he is. He's here.
SPEAKER_03But I'm not done yet.
SPEAKER_02I always forget where he is.
SPEAKER_04I l I love that. I went out to get a parcel and then I was like, oh I've already triggered the contamination thing anyway. Might as well just carry on. Go into the go into the uh the doctor's surgery. Oh, it's not here. Saw's law. And then came back. And then I what I love, because everyone knows I know I love a good O C D did it anyway. Might as well keep this going. Billy Mays, I'm gonna just wash my hands once. Fair enough. Yeah, non-anxious you would wash your hands once and then resist the compulsion three or four times. Well done. Well done, Cheryl. Absolutely. Lovely.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, really good job, and thank you for sharing that. That's an that's one that gets really OCD is super sneaky with its compulsions too.
SPEAKER_04Oh, it's the worst.
SPEAKER_02My my OCD clients, they they they're it's not them. And I always try to separate that. And then a lot of people say, like, hey, give your anxiety or OCD a name. I love that little little trick because it's their OCD. Their OCD wants to argue with me. Not them. They're not defiant, they're not annoying, but OCD would be like, no, but I just like it to be clean. Yeah, I know, but like, can this is not and this has nothing to do with clean at this point. This is nothing but a ritual. So stop defending it as this is just cleanliness. No, no, no. Wiping your countenance.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, but I can't sleep if I don't do this ritual. That's right. And isn't sleep important?
SPEAKER_02Right, exactly. No, no, no, right. So it will always it gets sneaky when you think you can justify it with some sort of logic, or the you know, that really in the end, it's that anxious or upset feeling that drives you to try to rationalize it. You want to get rid of the feeling. I get it. So again, it's not anybody's fault. There's definitely no, you know, no fault. Um, yeah, people are chiming in and out. We do have a studio audience now these days when we record, and I see people I can't sleep if I have that particular thoughts, as one of our community members. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04So yeah, someone made a joke about Thorax being like a Pokemon. Thorax, I choose you. Thorax, use tachycardia. That that that cracked me up.
SPEAKER_02That will be the whole next episode, it'll be on tachycardia, then. So um, yeah, yeah, not again.
SPEAKER_04OCD in particular. Because OCD always weaponizes anxiety and guilt. Yep. And so it's like it's very much like a lot of that laughing thing, but and reassurance and sneaky reassurance seeking. You know, I'm not the exception to the rule, am I? Yeah, surely, you know, or you've seen this before, right? Or people have seen that. These are the people that go onto Reddit and try and find the exact carbon copy of themselves down in a Reddit forum. Yeah, and they are the exact carbon copies of them. They even share the same date of birth, same height, same eye color, same family, even, but their hair color, you know, that something's different. Their fringe looks different. Well, therefore, I've not got 100% reassurance. Yeah, that's not me. I'm the exception now.
SPEAKER_02And the amazing thing about that is when you go to processing that content, y'all are the same. You all y'all are carbon copies. We were too, right? Josh and I lived this as well. We're all carbon copies of each other in the process, but you get caught up in the content, and the content makes it sneaky. Like, no, no, no. I need somebody who has this exact thought or this exact fear, this exact circumstance. And then if they in order to leave it alone, if they resisted it and it turned out okay, then okay, I'll believe it. But since you can never find a perfect match because you're you're focusing on the content, and the content will always be unique for each individual. No, no, you all had the same I you know, so I I say that to my clients all the time. Like, this is delightfully like boring for me to hear because this is the same process arguing about this topic. In an hour, I'm gonna hear a different topic with the same process. And being content focused will leave you prey to the sneaky things, the sneakiness of the compulsion for sure. Um that's a that's a good one. I I I'll bring up another one. This one is tricky though, because we never want to we don't want to discourage anybody from helping ever. Like it's lovely to support each other and reach out and let people know they're not alone. And community is such an important thing. But I find that sometimes a sneaky compulsion is let me first learn every last word, phrase, all the jargon, all the buzzwords. I'm gonna know all about it so I can recite it back to my therapist verbatim. Now I also want to tell you everything I know about anxiety, anxiety disorders, panic disorder, and OCD. Right. So that can be really sneaky. And it's it's lovely to want to help. I'm not saying that it isn't helping, but sometimes that's reassuring, uh, sometimes that's gets framed as helping, or I'm just trying to help. I just want to make sure other people gain from my experience, which is true. But if you feel like I must, I must tell people, I must run into that thread and write 68 paragraphs about what I know about the mechanics of intrusive thoughts, sometimes that can be a sneaky compulsion. And it's hard, right? It's hard because you don't want to tell, like, hey, don't do that, don't help people, but at the same time, you can see when it's a pattern when a person does it again and again and again and again. Like, who are you trying to convince?
SPEAKER_04Your your colleague here, or you know, you've reminded me of actually one of a very common compulsion that is sneaky, yeah, is that we're always told, talk about how you feel, talk about how you feel. But that can be a confession compulsion. So people with OCD sometimes just can't help it. They have, or they're about their anxiety, they have to tell people every day how they feel. Yeah, you know, whether it's their parents, their partner, their friend, loved one. I just can't, it almost feels automatic. It's sneaky, but and it's it's sneaky because it's like, well, we we should talk about how we feel, you know. In general, yes, we don't really hide how we feel, but when an anxiety disorder or OCD hijacks that narrative, it becomes a confession compulsion. It actually becomes a superstitious ritual. Yeah, I have to tell people how I feel. You don't. You told them an hour ago.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Or what if you didn't today? But those two are particularly sneaky because you would think me as the clinician, the therapist, the helper, when I point that out, like, hey, maybe next time when you feel like you need to jump in and tell somebody everything you know about intrusive thoughts, what if you didn't? It sounds like I'm telling somebody to not help another human being, that which is ridiculous. Or when you tell somebody like, hey, maybe experiment with just keeping your feelings to yourself tomorrow just to see how that goes. It would sound like you're telling them to shut up and never talk about how they feel. Which neither of those things would make sense and face value, right? Like it sounds like we're being horrible, ridiculous. Like, who are these anxiety specialists? They're awful. Like, no wonder why nobody's like them. I know because there's a lot of nuance here. And what could be a really good thing gets twisted and then used against the person and it becomes a compulsion that keeps them stuck? So that's why this stuff is so tricky so so often. It's why we butt heads with other therapists sometimes, too, even in the best cases where there's a lot of respect there. They don't understand. Like, did you just tell like your client to not talk about their feelings? Yeah, I did. I did say that. That's correct.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Well, they can keep it in the therapy session, but like how many times have you told your partner this today or this week how you feel?
SPEAKER_05Right.
SPEAKER_04Like, really, honestly, oh, about 45 times. It's like, well, is that conveying that? You know, don't get me wrong, non-anxious you would convey to your partner how you feel. Feel tired today, feel overwhelmed today, feel happy today, feel stressed today, feel anxious about something that isn't my internal state today. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm anxious. I'm anxious. Yeah, I'm anxious. What do I do? I'm anxious. That can become very sneaky compulsion. Yeah, I hear a lot.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. You don't understand, you just don't understand. You don't understand. Like that sneaky compulsion could be to try to get the other person to agree, also. Like, I'm gonna keep telling you how I feel so that I can get you to agree that I should be just sitting on the sofa or doing these rituals or whatever it is. That's a tough one, too. It it is it sounds at face value like this is not good mental health advice, but I but we promise it it can be.
SPEAKER_04But it yeah, but it's also good as well. It's completely okay to be like, Oh, how are you doing? You know what? I've had the compulsion, the sneaky compulsion, just keep just confessing how I feel. But you know what? Even that is exhausting. I'm getting tired of this. This whole thing is exhausting. Sorry, guys. That's completely okay. Yeah, that's completely okay to convey how exhausting and it is and how difficult it is. That's fine. Yeah, you know, but but just be aware that it's not a confession. You're not trying to apologize for your behavior beforehand.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it's just so weird. I think it's so important too to, you know, whole episode on sneaky compulsions. Sometimes we just don't know whether it's a sneaky compulsion or not. That's okay, though. And sometimes it means we will get it wrong. Okay, but that's okay too, because we're allowed to get even our own mental health wrong, learn from that, and adjust. So there's no perfect way to know. Is that a sneaky compulsion? Well, I maybe. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. On Tuesday it is, on Thursday it isn't. So, like, this is flexibility, flexibility. We we always want to be able to handle the nuance and the flexibility here, but so I I don't know.
SPEAKER_04You know, I I know you can't really answer this, but how long does it really take to get better? I hear that quite a lot.
SPEAKER_02Sometimes it'll ask, how long did it take me? I because you lived it too, so I'm sure you have a lot of people say, Well, how long did it take you? I know, I know I can't be exactly like you, but still, how long did it take you? You answered the question, but then you still felt like you already know the answer that I'm gonna give you, but you still felt like it was right you should ask it, right? Uh but I can't answer it. You're right. That's a tough one, too. Um, what else can we say?
SPEAKER_04I said three, six months without support properly. Then I got resensitized, and that took me a year.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's pretty fair. It's pretty fair to say that, I guess.
SPEAKER_04You know, I'm so glad I got resensitized as well, because I learned way more.
SPEAKER_02The second time, right? You know, I I I it's it's true. I went through it three times, and I in in retrospect, the three times probably taught me much more than if I just had figured out some magic technique to not panic.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. So well, it was Sally Winston who was my therapist many years ago for about a month.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And she called me out, she says, No, you're annoyed because you the first time you were like you'd say out loud, oh it's just you could we've spoken about it, oh it's just anxiety, and then I had the bravery, those words would remind me to leave it alone. Then life got in the way, and then suddenly that I turned that into a technique and it wasn't working. What actually what happened was that it was it was I forgot to leave it alone. In the past, I would be that would be my Pavlov. It would be, oh, it's just anxiety. Yep, that's my trigger word to not compulse, to leave it alone, to not engage. And that's when I recovered the first time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Second time, after a huge bender at a festival and abusing drugs and alcohol and going crazy. Um, I resensitized myself um like an idiot. Uh, that alongside many other things, and then to calm down and be like, oh, it's just anxiety. Why is it not going? And then I check and I check. And they were sneaky because I wasn't even realizing I was doing it. I was like, why isn't it? It's just anxiety. Or maybe it's not just anxiety because it's still here. Maybe it's the the sneaky compulsions was actually checking and monitoring, something I hadn't done for years.
SPEAKER_02Amazing, right?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I've solved this. I sold this. I write a book on this, I've solved this. Now I've not solved this. This must be something different. Yeah. And that's why I'm so happy I got resensitized the second time because it brought to light the actual sneaky compulsions that were keeping me there.
SPEAKER_02It's funny because you forgot the middle part, and somehow all you remembered it operationally was I say this and then I feel better. But wait, you forget that you forget the whole middle part.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, said you did well, but you you you've somehow turned it into a magic word. I was like, I don't know how how I did that. Yeah. Yeah, which which is okay because I was desensitized for years. Yeah, sure. So you kind of do forget the middle part when you get so good at it, you're like, it's not really important. You know, I can just leave this alone, but then yeah, yeah, that's what happened.
SPEAKER_02No, the technique technique. It was one of our first 10 episodes when I think I made a joke and I'm like, I owe you like 200 bucks for this one, dude, because I often say, like, I had the Claire Weeks book in my hand. I I read it the first time, read it twice, and bam, I just started like I stopped fighting it, and the panic attacks went away. But then they came back years later. And I why couldn't I do that again? Because I forgot all the middle part. I techniquified, oh, I just relax and then it stops. I forgot all the middle part.
SPEAKER_04There's the sneaky, another sneaky compulsion. Yeah. Pick up Claire Weeks' book or The Anxious Truth. Right. Or any book by me, like Untangle Your Anxiety or anything.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_04Anything. You pick up that anxiety book, step one, you feel seen. You feel seen, and that is a wonderful one of the best feelings about being human. When you suddenly feel seen after feeling isolated and lonely for so long, guess what you do? It has your interest. Anxiety no longer becomes the most important thing in the room, and you stop compulsing because you're listening to Claire Weeks or Drew Linsolata or Josh or whoever, you know, anyone. Oh, and then you stop compulsing for two, three hours and wonder why you feel better. What got the put the credit there? Drew, Dr. Claire Weeks, Josh Fletcher. Wow, these guys know what they're doing, but you didn't acknowledge that it was you that stopped compulsing. That's why you felt good. And then you pick up that book later on, four weeks later, when you feel re-sensitized, and suddenly it's not working because it doesn't have that hundred percent intrigue, that instant impact of feeling seen. Yeah, only 70% of you feel seen, so it's not working. It's not the magic words of the page, it's not the doomsday book, it's not any of these things, it's a warlock spell book. You just decided to stop compulsing, and I've done that too. I just went back to hope and help with your nerves and whatnot. Oh, yeah, but I'm only half reading it now because I want it to do the magic thing. All anxiety disorders are attentional, yeah, and that's what it was. And you try you turned reading Claire Weeks into a technique, and that is the most sneaky of all of the compulsions.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I could not agree more. And I think we hear it too when people experience, like, oh, they've been maybe doing better, feeling better, which is really great. I know everybody wants to feel better, and I love that part. And then they don't feel so good. Maybe life triggered them or whatever happens, and then where they'll say stuff like, Oh, I gotta go back, I gotta go back and listen to some podcasts. I'm like, No, you didn't. The podcast didn't tell you anything, it just gave you some reason to let go and stop fighting and stop compulsing and stop avoiding. That's all it did. Right, like do no, for you don't have to, you know, all right, listen to an episode to remind yourself that oh, then my problem here is I start I start fighting again. Okay, fine. But people will think, oh, I I have to go back and read the book again. I gotta pick up your book again. Like, no, no, I don't think you do. Like the book didn't fix you, so you're right. It's the middle part where you stopped compulsing or avoiding or escaping, all the same words in my book.
SPEAKER_04So your books can't fix you, they can only inform you. Yeah. The only book that can fix you is same time next week by Joshua Fletcher, released May the 14th by Ryan Spring.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that book will definitely fix you. There's no doubt about it. Ignore everything else we've said for 37 minutes and get that book because it will it will cure you. Um, I want to do one more audio did it anyway, because this is a really good one. So let's play real quick before we wrap things up. I want to uh people should hear this.
SPEAKER_00Hello, Josh and Drew. My name is Acacia. I am from Canada. Sorry if you hear me walking. I'm currently walking along these solar panels for my job. Um, I've been dealing with health anxiety pretty badly for the past four years. Right now, I'm not in such a sensitized state, thanks to your guys' podcast and therapy. Thank goodness. Um, but basically, last week in my field job, I have to walk around like six hours a day by myself along these solar panels. Um, and I got super anxious, really dizzy in the middle of it. Haven't felt anxiety like that in a very long time. Called my mom. I thought I was sure gonna pass out, but she told me to keep going. Um and I took the time to calm down, yet catch a few breaths, take some time, just chill. And I ended up continuing on my way, and I actually did more than I thought I would. So I was very proud of myself. And even now, next week, um, where I am now, I'm definitely a little more anxious just coming back here, thinking I might get dizzy again. But I know it'll just be anxiety, and I can get through it. And I'm proud of myself for coming back today and doing the damn thing. So thank you so much for all your help and for everyone else suffering out there. I feel you, it's difficult, but I'm really proud of myself for riding the wave and feeling okay and finishing it off really well, even though I had a little bump in the road. So thank you so much. And I know we all appreciate what you guys do.
SPEAKER_04So good. I love that. I love also if I was to if I was gonna walk and have a panic attack in front of someone, it would definitely be with this book. 100%.
SPEAKER_02Okay, sure. It'd be my go-to. She just sounded fun, right? So friendly. There was something compelling about that for sure.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, oh, I'm having a panic attack. Oh, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Keep walking, keep walking on these solar panels. They're probably slippery too. So, I mean, I don't know, maybe they've never walked on solar panels before, but that was really awesome. Uh, I think well done. Yeah, it was really, really, really great. And I I love even acknowledging, well, I went back to do it again and I felt nervous because I'm gonna repeat going back to where I felt dizzy and afraid. I don't want to do it again. No, I'm not gonna fall for that trick. I'm gonna do it anyway. So, what if I get dizzy while I'm walking on the solar panels? It doesn't matter! I'm gonna put it in every episode. Sorry.
SPEAKER_04Did you see my Instagram post with the three million downloads and I put the original tune on?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that made me happy. For sure. Anyway, thank you, Acacia, for sharing all the way from Canada walking on the solar panels.
SPEAKER_04So very good. Uh some comments in the in the live audience. Let it be, and don't make it the most important thing in the room has helped me greatly this past week. It's good to know. Let it be. The Beatles said that.
SPEAKER_02Um, who else do we have? It's like having an anxiety angel and devil. Oh, I love this one. It's like an angel and devil on each shoulder. It's just anxiety. Leave it, but also, oh my god, it's anxiety. That's really that's very accurate.
SPEAKER_04That's so good.
SPEAKER_02Oh uh this person.
SPEAKER_04I always feel bad that I talked myself about myself the whole session in therapy. My therapist had to assure me that's the whole point of therapy.
SPEAKER_02We get that out all the time. And people are so lovely. That they're so like, is it are you okay? Like, I'm telling you a lot today. I'm like, this is what I signed up for. Yeah, please tell me more. But people are very concerned that like they're talking too much in therapy.
SPEAKER_04Uh, I can't sleep if I have that particular thought. I always thought it was unique for me. No, oh no, no, it's not. So there's no particular magic thought that can break you, or that's very superstitious, very OCD kind of okay. You could sleep with any thought, you know. If anything, I could have a disturbing thought, but it doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_02Uh was what one person who said, I would really like this is a sneaky compulsion showing up a little bit, right? I would really like another episode on that topic, and in parentheses, sleep. Well, why? Like sleep is we've probably between the anxious truth, this podcast, we've probably covered sleep more than any other topic. Maybe health anxiety, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_04There's even one in the panic pod that I've done that recently.
SPEAKER_02But it's it doesn't matter. Well, you know there you go. Like, but uh, but can you talk more about that? And I'll often say, Well, what are you hoping to hear that we haven't already said? I've done like six episodes of The Anxious Truth on sleep anxiety, but can you talk more about it? I'm the kind of person who just need I just but I just need to hear more. There's nothing else to say.
SPEAKER_04That's a sneak compulsion. Yeah, sneaky.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I get it. I get it. So fair enough. Yeah. Um, what else do we have? Do we want to read one or two more in the in the chat here before we end it?
SPEAKER_04Um I'm not sure what this word is. If you were if you were sensitized, would you still be able to do your job?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Why not? Yeah, I guess. I'm stopping you. Something to put me in the state would be helpful. Um I mean, honestly, if we were still sensitized, could we do our jobs? I mean, I think the answer would be that's a hard question. That's like uh that's like a worm question. Would you love me if I was a worm? Like it's a hypothetical. I wouldn't. That's hard to answer that question. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I probably wouldn't choose to do the job if I was still afraid of talking about it and all that stuff. I don't know.
SPEAKER_04Honestly, there's a part of me that thinks you're going a bit too far in trying to make so many things compulsions. Maybe so. But I honestly believe that anything that deviates from thanks to the honesty. Anything that deviates from what non-anxious you would do is a safety behavior, and every safety behavior thanks uh the threat response for fire for firing off all day. Yeah, you know, not everything's compulsions, by the way. And also, I just do compulsive behaviors that are nothing to do with anxiety. I'm autistic, so I just do random compulsions, but they don't affect my day. That's the difference. Yeah, the compulsions that keep you in a sensitized state are the ones that, yeah, you do have to look out for, particularly the sneaky ones. But everyone does compulsive behavior, and that's completely fine. But as long as it's not affecting your day, the ones that affect the day and keep your fear response there, that's the ones that we've got to look out for.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think you know, compulsion is a bit of a blanket. Term in this episode anyway, like technically are they all like meet the technical death? No, but there are also avoidances, safety behaviors, escape behaviors, and that sort of stuff. I just put the blanket term compulsion over it. A good rule of thumb would be if you are doing a thing and then you in retrospect wish that you weren't doing that thing, or wish you could stop doing that thing, or you could see this is keeping me stuffed, then I don't care if we call it a compulsion and avoidance or anything else, it's a problem, right? So you can't argue on behalf of a thing that in retrospect, every an hour or two later, you say, Why can't I stop doing that? Then there's no argument in favor of it. There just isn't too bad. Like I know that's hard to hear, but that's true. So what are you gonna do?
SPEAKER_04Yeah, and and trust me, they they are they are really important, honestly. Like I do believe I've doing this for 10 years now, and um, I do believe anxiety disorders are obsessive compulsive. You get that you're the obsession is my anxiety, and the compulsive what's what maintains the obsession. So, yeah, it's I will go heavy on that. Don't get me wrong, there's things outside of that too. Yeah, compassion, we bang on about understanding yourself, life outside of that, family, things like that. Of course, you know, it isn't just that. But when we're looking at the mechanism stuff, this podcast can't look at each individual unique person's life and what's going on there. That's what personal therapy is for. But in general, and when you're looking at it mechanistically, yeah, you know, that's why I always bang on about those golden rules because it's so as someone who has been there, you know, it it's pretty tricky. Um, I love this. I'm a therapist and I still do my job sensitized and anxious at times. Oh, there's a therapist I would want to see practicing what we preach. Yeah, there we go.
SPEAKER_02Love it, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Love it anyway.
SPEAKER_02All right, there you go. Sneaky compulsions. I think it was pretty good. Look at me evaluating our own podcast episode. Wow. We did a good job today, Josh. Go us. Come on, man. Why do you guys even know?
SPEAKER_04What you don't know is that you and I actually do these episodes compulsively to stop feeling anxious. And that episode 151 is ironically our own sneaky compulsions.
SPEAKER_02Oh, wow. That just took a plot twist. Love it. So my god. Well, thanks for listening, guys. Thanks for hanging out. Thanks to our studio audience on the Disordered Community app. You can find more about that at disordered.fm slash community. Totally optional if you want a little extra support and interaction. And how could people get in touch with us and participate otherwise? What would you advise they do to send in did it anyways and questions?
SPEAKER_04Come find us at disordered.fm if you want a um a community to hang out with some excellent people. I love everyone in the community, it's really cool. Um, really supportive of each other, love the honesty and stuff like that. It's really cool. Uh, you can come and that's at disorder.fm. Again, not mandatory, just space. I know a lot of people live lives where they don't have that community or support around them. And if you want to have that, it's there. Uh, but nothing's hidden. Come just come to disorder.fm and submit your voicemail, your messages. We try to get through them, and we really appreciate that.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. We'll come back and do it again next week. Thanks for hanging out.
SPEAKER_04Thanks for hanging out, guys.
